Aug 10, 2021
What Is Positive Intelligence? See How You Can Take Advantage of Knowing with Ann Holm
Positive Intelligence is so critical, especially right now. It's important to know when we're getting in our own way. We keep trying to do use strategies to manage our world that simply aren't working. The Positive intelligence that I'm talking about today is based on the work of Shirzad Chamine.
Ann has been in the people development business since 1984. Currently, she is a Professional Certified Coach, specializing in executive, and organizational development coaching. Ann is a certified Master Practitioner of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and a world expert on how to use type effectively for personal and team development.
Ann is also a skilled mental fitness coach. Just like physical fitness, you can deliberately build focus and resilience to help you reach your goals. The stronger your mental muscle, the more likely you are to hold onto your gains over time. Ann uses Positive Intelligence which is an up-and-coming framework to achieve mental resilience.
Prior to coaching, Ann had 25 years of experience in Applied Brain Science, and she also uses this hands-on experiences to help her clients understand how to stay focused, be engaged, and energized given the demands of the 21st-century workplace.
Full Transcript Below
What Is Positive Intelligence? See How You Can Take Advantage of Knowing with Ann Holm
Sun, 8/1 1:08PM • 37:00
saboteurs, avoider, people, situation, controller, individual, positive, stickler, intelligence, person, thinking, feel, instance, strategy, hyper, victim, mental resilience, hand sanitizer, pleaser, characters
Ann, Roy Barker
Roy Barker 00:00
Your host Roy, of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that can talk about a lot of diverse topics and today is no exception. We are excited to have Ann Holm back with us. She has been a previous guest, but seemed like we had to wrap it up right in the middle of a great conversation. So she's been gracious enough to come back. She's been in the people development business since 1984. She is currently a professional certified coach, specializing in executive and organizational development coaching. She is certified master practitioner of the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, and a world expert on how to use type, how to use type effectively for personal and team development. She's also a skilled mental fitness coach, just like physical fitness, you can deliberately build focus and resilience to help you reach your goals, the stronger your mental muscle, the more likely you are to hold on to your gains over time, she uses the positive intelligence, which is an up and coming framework to achieve mental resilience. Prior to coaching, she had 25 years of experience in applied brain science. And she also used this hands on experience to help her clients understand how to stay focused, engaged and energized given the demands of the 21st century workplace. Ann thanks a lot, and welcome back to the show.
Hi, glad to be here. Yeah,
Roy Barker 01:25
so I'm excited. And actually, in the sentiero, the positive intelligence that is one thing that, you know, we really want to touch on, I'll let you, you know, kind of give a little introduction about how you found yourself here. But in, you know, we're going to kind of frame this positive intelligence about the impending move from workers being home base to maybe having to go back to the office even for a limited amount of time and the anxiety and everything that's wrapped around that. So anyway, that tell us a little bit about you know, how you found yourself here, this is such an interesting, I guess, skill set and play, you know, area to focus on.
Yeah, it you know, it is it's, it's, it's it's a very interesting study. And it's also one that I think is so critical, given the times that we're in right now, it's always important to know when we're getting in our own way. And that's effectively what's lack of positive intelligence is we get it we get in our own way, we keep trying to do use strategies to manage our world that simply aren't working. And we all have those. So this positive intelligence that I'm wanting to talk about today is based on the work of shirzad humaine. And it is a best selling book of that Sherzad, published in 2013. And it has now evolved into a very useful coaching program. And I'm a certified practitioner of that program. But what I love about this is that it teaches mental flexibility, mental resilience, especially in the context of what we're going through right now, which is this ambiguous state of, are we going to work? Are we not going to work? What's it going to look like? etc? What are the risks, etc, etc. I mean, it's a long list of ambiguities. And it's putting people into a position where they're trying defensive sort of strategies that might actually be hard to begin or getting themselves less than what they really need or want. Yeah.
Roy Barker 03:42
Yeah, no, it feels like we've just gotten, you know, kind of settled into this routine. And now it's like that change again, and I, you know, realistically, the only constant in this world is change. And so I do realize that but you know, a lot of people have been at home, they've been kind of left to their own devices managing themselves or their workflow, not close to other people. And so now we're going to try, and maybe some of these behaviors have been amplified during this period. But now we're going to try to maybe bring everybody back. So it's not only the anxiety of what's my new routine going to look like, but also, you know, kind of the interaction and what are the risks, like you said, of actually going back to an office?
Yes, yes, that's exactly it. And so I'll get lunch, I'll give a brief description of what the positive intelligence framework is. And then I will talk about how it sort of applies to what we're, what we're talking about here, what this return to work thing. So basically, we have a tendency, everybody has a tendency to either judge ourselves, judge our circumstances or judge other other individuals. So we We spend a lot of time judging. And we fall into this, particularly when we are in situations where we feel you we have negative emotion, whether you feel unsafe, we feel unsure, etc. So we start start doing that we start saying, you know, poor me, I'm in this particular situation or I, I, I'm not going to be safe or or something like that. We might judge others, you know, I wish that guy would just stop talking about it and just get back to work. Because we have those guys as well. We just circumstances, Oh, my gosh, you know, is it ever going to feel normal again, so we get ourselves into these mindsets where we're constantly, you know, judging. And then on top of that, we have these characters that shirzad talks about that are called the saboteurs. So there's certain ways in which we try to cope with these situations. And it actually is counterproductive. We don't think it's counterproductive, but it actually is. So I'll give an example of what one of these characters might look like. So one of the Sabbath tours that she talks about is an avoider so an avoider is an individual who is very uncomfortable around unpleasantness. So they, you know, they might be the kind of person if we put it in the context of the pandemic, might be the kind of person who would say, this is way overblown. People just need to get over it. You know, just stop talking about it. No, I don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear what the CD C has to say. It's it's this. It's this strategy that is being used to try to not have your equilibrium disturbed too much. Right. Okay, then I happen to be an avoider myself. So, you know, I The funny thing about being an avoider is that you think to yourself, well, what's wrong with wanting to keep things pleasant? Right? What's wrong with trying to make sure just, you know, it feels like it's actually a good thing to be that person. But actually, what it does is, is you're actually potentially avoiding very important information, or you're dismissing people who might have legitimate concerns. That's a tendency of an avoider. Okay, so now that person's coming back to work. And somebody might have a legitimate concern about well, you know, what are our protocols? And that individual might say, an avoider might say, Well, you know, you'll find out when you get here, we'll be fine. Right? Now, another person's strategy might be around trying to get it every single specific rule, those people are known as sticklers. So they want to know, they might want to know all the protocols, they might become very upset. If somebody walks past the hand sanitizer and doesn't use it sees a mask drop down below the nose, something like that they make they can become very, very, very agitated. So now imagine a stickler and an avoider have come back to work. Oh my gosh. So the exam, the anxieties are still high, the ambiguity is still high. And now you've got these two characters that are trying to share share office space, you know, that one guy going, you know, just just cool. And the other guy is going, I'll cool it when you use the hands.
Roy Barker 08:40
Or the stick. I was just something popped into my head about the stickler. I don't know if I asked you if this is part of their trade, though, is it's the guy that is like, okay, you know, here's this protocol that we have, maybe it's just using hand sanitizer, but then it's like, Well, okay, but what if, if the sun came up in the West tomorrow, you know, do you know if the moon turned green? You know, it's these people that they come up with every imaginable scenario to you're like, Oh, my gosh, let's just start in with what we're doing. And then you know, we'll cross these other bridges if they ever materialize. Okay.
And that's interesting, because you actually, it's not a stickler, but you brought up another variety of saboteur, which is the hypervigilant. Okay, so, those are the guys who say, okay, you know, everybody here at work has gotten vaccinated, right, we're all back. We've all had the vaccinations. And that person says, Well, what about the B 1x variant? How have we accounted for that? Right? And so, you, uh, you're looking at this, this level of constant hyper vigilance about the what if the you know what, if the moon is Green and sun comes up in the West. That whole kind of a thing. Yeah, you know, they want everything is about getting the sureness of, of there being no possibility of something going wrong. The problem is, is that that's not that's not reality for anybody, right? You know if that if we were looking to prevent all possible disasters, we wouldn't get in a car we wouldn't, you know we'd be carrying, we'd have all our food pureed because what if we choked on a whatever you know. So but that's another version of coping with that stress this hypervigilant. So we've talked about three of them the avoider, who, you know, tries to avoid anything that's going to disrupt their flow. We've talked about the stick the stickler, the person who is really tight about protocols we've talked about now the hypervigilant, the person who's, you know, worried about whether or not some sort of further curveball is going to destroy is going to put everybody at risk. So those are three and there's six others, I'll just tell you who they are, okay, we have a full list. So we have the controller, this is the individual who tries to control themselves control, everybody control the system. They're different than the stickler. Because the stickler is looking at, are you following the protocol and the rules, the controller is trying to move the chess pieces. So they're the ones that are trying to seize control of everything, and are very, very anxious if they don't have it. So they feel like, if I don't control the situation, the situation is gonna control me. That's their mindset. And they don't realize the dark side to that thinking, Yeah, all right. So that's another one controller, the hyper achiever, these might be the individuals who are out to to prove that they can work, you know, harder, faster and accomplish more than anybody else. And so they don't, they leave it to a little bit of a debris path. You know, they're the ones that are, you know, shooting off aim emails at 1am. And making everybody else feel guilty about not, you know, engaging with that. So, so you've got that you have the I mentioned the hypervigilance, we have the restless person, and these are the guys that have a hard time just staying in one spot. So they might be the guys that say, you know, I don't want to come back into the office, my plan was going to was to go to Bora Bora to Bora Bora for the next several months, and then I was going to go to Croatia, then I was going and so trying to get them to say okay, no, actually, you know, you might be coming into the office a few days a week here. They might, you know, you might start to see this restlessness. And then imagine By the way, the restless person engages with the controller who says, Oh, no, you're not. No, you're coming in, right? And so you get, you know, you get these kinds of of behaviors. So like, how many have I listed? so far? Six? That is six. Yes. Yeah. Okay, six. So the ones What else? Oh, by the hyper achiever, the hyper the controller, the avoider, the pleaser, an individual who, you know, is going out of their way to make sure everybody's happy at every moment. Yeah. So they bending over backwards, and they're exhausting themselves trying to make sure everybody, you know, is is happy. And their, their, their. Their way of controlling that situation, that exact anxious situation is by trying to serve to the point that they wear themselves out. Right. So, so that's another individual. So I've got seven of those, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. Okay. The victim, the victim is another one. Now the victim is the one who is just, this is awful, that's awful. The situation's never going to be the same. You know, we might come into the office, but it's going to be terrible. And, you know, I so this this idea of every there's no control here, we're just we're just victims, we're just going to be, you know, that's why it's going to be so that's another character. So now, again, you imagine these guys interacting with each other, you've got, you know, the stickler, who comes and says, Oh, you forgot the hand sanitizer, and the victim says, Oh, I never get anything right. Right. Right, right. Right. Right. So yeah, you get you get that going. Now, who am I forgetting in this lineup of characters, I've got the pleaser. I've got the victim. I've got the hyper achiever. I've got the hyper vigilant I've got the what else to have I mentioned already, avoid Under the avoider and restless, that's restless. So why there's just one that I just, it's not coming to mind it usually can rattle these off just a second, I'll just tell you what they are. That's okay. It's unbelievable. I have to look it up. Let's see. So these are again, these are just guys that are getting in the way of us using our best thinking. Yeah, okay, here we go. Which one? Oh, the hyper rational? Oh, yes, of course. So the hyper rational is the guy who is says, follow the science. All you have to do is follow the science. And they don't think about some of the emotional underpinnings of what might be creating difficulties for other people. So they might say, you just follow the science. Well, science actually changes. And if we only follow the science, we actually have been getting lots of mixed messages from science. Yeah. All you got to do is mask No, no mask, nope. sciences, no mask, no sciences, one mask, no sciences, two masks, yeah, etc. So if you take that hyper rational stance, oh, whatever, you know, level just follow the science. That's no guarantee either. But that's the strategy these individuals use. So imagine, follow the science is interacting with the victim or follow the science is interacting with the avoider, you can get these these mixtures of personalities that are using their you're using maladaptive strategy saboteurs to try to create some sort of order in their own thinking,
Roy Barker 16:45
yeah. So are they are we do we have an underlying predisposition to one of these, but maybe we switch between them in different situations? Or do we typically if we're, you know, let's just say if we're the pleaser, we're the pleaser, pretty much constantly?
I have? That's an excellent question. We all have all of these inside of ourselves to a certain degree, and the situation will certainly dictate what you might see. However, we also have usually two or so two, or three, that repeat themselves more often, okay. And on top of that, one of my colleagues and I actually did some research on whether somebody's personality type by way of The MBTI could actually predict what those saboteurs might look like. And for some personality types, they're pretty easy to predict. So for somebody who, for instance, is an intp, those individuals tend to, you know, lean towards hyper rational. But for some types you can't predict. But we usually have a one, two or three of them that show up a lot. Mine is restless avoiders. So, you know, I'm the kind of person who says, Oh, you know, it's gonna be fine. And and I'm going to bore you. So, but it's annoying for it seems like, well, what's wrong with that you're taking care of yourself, you're in the dark side is, is that you are leaving a debris path behind you. And you'll still feel that restlessness no matter where you are.
Roy Barker 18:26
So that guess that brings up kind of this situation, I wonder if employers have taken this into account? Because there's always the personality conflicts just when there's work. And now we've kind of bring this extra element of people have things to worry about or to be hyper vigilant. It's not just, yep, oh, you misspelled this word or that, you know, that Excel box should be strong enough. Now we've thrown this and people, I don't know, from what I've seen, people tend to be very emotional and be very whatever side they're lean into, they're very stringent on that, as you know, like, there's not too many people who are in the middle and trying to see the middle ground. So I guess, I guess the question wrapped up in all that was, you know, have employed as we see, openings and things like that, do you think that employers have really taken that into account?
Very likely not because the the saboteurs often show up as sort of a dark side of being a particular having a particular strength. So for instance, if you are somebody who is able to get things sort of lined up and working as a good unit, they, they're often lauded for those other behaviors and The depending on pecking order, for instance, the the hyper controlling boss doesn't it's not a dark it doesn't he doesn't think it's a dark side. This is how I keep this place running. Yeah, right. Yeah. And they don't they don't realize they don't realize even in themselves that that's actually creates a real downdraft. Yeah. When you when you bring those characters into the room because now you get somebody who for instance again, let's say an avoider so he noticed that something has gone wrong and he should go tell his boss the controller What's going on? Well if he feels like he's gonna go in there and just get nailed, or he gets his own personal freedom restricted like if he says For instance, I noticed on this spreadsheet, I made a mistake. And if he is going to go in and see the controller boss, the controller boss might say, Well, that's it. Everything you do from here on out, you have to show me first. So he might avoid go even going in there. Because he might meet that. Yeah, yeah. Right. So if this is the kind of dynamics we see, in a normal situation, you add the pandemic, and you add the return to work. And now you have the possibility of really seeing a lot of these characters. So you might that might beg the question then, okay, great. What are we doing? Right, right, right. Yes. So the nice thing about the positive intelligence program is two things, it creates self awareness around our own saboteurs. And what the, the impact of those things really are. And then there's also a way of teaching yourself how to have better self command of your thinking. So there's a there's actually an eight week program that can be done. And and I, I take clients through the eight week boot camp, and then they learn how to settle their physiology down and recognize that the saboteurs in the room and then they make other types of choices, the term is using your Sage powers, that's the term that shirzad uses. But it's this idea of, you know, finding some empathy in the situation, taking a step back, seeing what's really going on, taking a non judgmental approach to innovating for ideas, deciding, you know, what's in alignment with either your values or the values of the company and then deciding on action. So instead of battling the saboteurs, like, No, I'm not going to show him this spreadsheet, because then he's going to tell me, I have to talk to him. Every time I do a spreadsheet, you can, you can check those guys at the door. And you can come together and say, Okay, what went wrong here, I can understand why that went wrong. You know, what do you think is going to be a good way to go about fixing this. And so you can start to co create a solution that's using a more positive trajectory, then to start to battle, the saboteurs. Because when the saboteurs are in the room, you just get more of the negative stuff, and you get farther and farther apart. And so when you see the toxic office, a lot of times it's the saboteurs that are doing battle there.
Roy Barker 23:42
Yeah. So I'm just gonna say, I guess there has to be some respect about no matter our position is that you feel a certain way based on your beliefs and how you interpret data. I feel the way I do but the, you know, I look at this as politics and religion as well, the effort and the turmoil for me to try to come out and convince you that you're wrong. I'm right, you need to think like I do get on board with this. I mean, it and I know it's hard, because we want everybody to kind of we think our thinking is the norm, and how can anybody else think differently, but in reality, we have to embrace that and say, you know, why you feel the way you do because of this and then try to somehow, you know, I know we can't go so far that it becomes detrimental, but that some way we have to kind of adjust to be able to let people have those feelings.
Yeah, it's so it's so essential. And honestly, when, when people so when they do the positive intelligence program, they really are practicing 15 minutes a day. Mindfulness and I, we hear mindfulness a lot and we think, Oh gosh, we throw mindfulness on this Through mindfulness and that it's it's, it's, it's really about slowing down and thinking about what needs to be done in this moment, rather than thinking of all the things that went wrong in the past and all the things that could go wrong in the future, to the point where we're so distracted by that. So imagine, you know, for instance, a hypervigilant person coming back to work, and they're the only place their mind can go is what happens if the B one 2x variant shows up here? And, you know, and now we're in this particular search, and they can't, they can't bring themselves to Okay, this is what I need to do here. What are the protocols that I could follow? So that I know I'm safe? And, you know, and co create even as a team? All right, you know, what are we going to do as a team? What are we going to follow through on as a team, so that everybody feels like they can do their work and not get sidetracked? Yeah. But it's a big challenge. It's a huge challenge. Really?
Roy Barker 26:07
Yeah. And I heard an old saying years ago that, you know, people would just try to challenge you on saying, well, that's just your perception. But I think the strong point is that our perception is our reality.
That is correct. And when you battle it, and you don't try to, you know, meet with some sort of common thinking, or you are, you don't realize that your own perspective is up for some degree of discussion, right? You really can get, you know, more of these battles. So it's really, really helpful if if an office can you know, at least if each under individual can understand what their likely saboteur looks like. And, and go from there. So
Roy Barker 26:58
and we get, I think, to ask your opinion on this is that we need to ask the questions, why? To understand not to set up a point to have a bad alarm, because so many times they'll be like, Well, I know that you feel this way. So can you tell me why you feel you know, I'm just trying to understand better why you feel that way? And then the first thing out of your mouth, you're like, Oh, well, that's so wrong.
It's like, okay, what's the point of that? session? Right, that exercise? Yeah, well, that's, that's actually one of the real benefits to being having an entire staff, or at least the leadership, you know, if, if they even just go to positive intelligence.com, they can actually take that assessment for free, and find out what their flavor of of saboteur looks like, you know, that's the opening of a way to get at it. And then from there, if they think, Okay, well, you know, we want to, we want to improve that dynamic, then, you know, I can work with them or, or another person who knows this system can work for them. Yeah, but right off the bat, if you just go there, and you just get a feel for it. So if you say, Okay, here I am, I like that I'm gonna, you know, I'm I'm gonna avoid or you can at least start to see, that's the first layer of self awareness around the way we get into our get in our own way. And how others, we might bring out other sorts of saboteur behavior and other people as well, you know,
Roy Barker 28:35
yeah, that's the other question is, so do do just take an avoider, for instance, do they have more conflict with maybe the controller or versus just trying to let versus, you know, somebody else on the spectrum that maybe they don't have, or as they're just potential for everybody to have conflict?
I think I think it just you, you'll see, you'll see various types of conflict unfold. So in the past, I have done some workshops for people using the saboteur thing. And I do this thing called saboteur theater where I have two volunteers come up, and they pick out of a hat, whatever those saboteurs are. So let's say you're gonna have a victim and a controller, right? And then I give them a scenario, like they're sharing a hotel room. And then there's, then they're going to do like a little skit on what it would look like if a victim and a controller, were sharing a hotel room. So, you know, the one individual might do something like they swipe their key card, it doesn't work. Oh, that never works for me, the controller elbows his way in and says, Let me do it and, you know, on and on it goes. So you'll get that flavor, but you might get let's say you get an avoider and a stickler and they're trying to balance a checkbook, right? You know, it's, it's, you'll just see a different flavor of conflict come out. You know, especially if people's mindset is falling into that negative. It can be fear, it can be lack of certainty there's there's lots of different things that you know, it could be irritability, there could be any kind of these negative emotions are the first sign you're going to bring the saboteur to the table.
Roy Barker 30:28
Yeah. And I'm like, I feel like I'm that way to the point. It's that the, the not knowing if, if I know yes, if I know, no, I can plan appropriately and take the corrective action, it's that it's just that place of limbo, sometimes. But then then we could kind of talk a little bit about the, you know, borrowing trouble, you know, we talked about that with worry, and because you can worry, worry, worry about a situation and I'm gonna, I'll throw myself under the bus, we had one here the other day that, you know, I was thinking a lot about it kept me up one night, and then guess what, it didn't even materialize. And I look back and think, what a waste of effort. And they even have given it a second thought. And it's gonna tell you, it's hard. But that's something I tried to do is like, okay, is this a reality? yet? If it's not, then, you know, we, of course, we don't want there may not be any traffic on the interstate, but we still don't want to, you know, sit in a chair out in the middle of that. We have some common sense, but I know, on the up, but really is like, if, if we can't do anything about it, is it really worth giving it a lot of extra thought? You know, for some things?
Yeah. And there's a lot of what I really love about this positive intelligence system is that there's a lot of strategies that you can teach yourself, to start to understand and pick something do something else other than, you know, worry, or, or, or whatever. So I love the idea of you don't put your chair on the interstate, even whether it's locked. It's really good. But you know, but you do see people really, they can stay up all night worrying about something. And, and so maybe one of those techniques might be well, what's the absolute worst case scenario? And can you deal with that worst case scenario? Or what would be your strategy? that kind of a thing, as long as you're not playing it out as reality? Yeah. You know what I mean? So and that's, and though that that takes a little bit of mental discipline and self awareness to know you're even there to even know that you're ruminating. For instance, if you lay awake at night, you're ruminating, you may not even think you're ruminating, you're just thinking about it. Yeah, no, you're ruminating. So well, and
Roy Barker 32:50
sometimes we can, you know, make it come true. Because I guess the side effect of being up is then now you haven't slept and now you're cranky. So even if that thing happens, not to the extent you thought your reaction is probably going to be way overblown and out because you're just tired. You're tired. And you've been thinking about this and how I'm going to react. And I'm not going to let that happen. And we're so ready to pounce. So yeah, just yeah. bad situation. Yeah, well, and thanks so much for taking time out of your day. It's always a delightful to chat with you. It's always insightful, we always learn a lot of good stuff. So before we get some other information, what is a tool that you use in your daily life tool or habits, something that really helps you,
I actually do a positive intelligence gym session every day, which means I just, you know, I learned to to slow my mind down enough or slow my thinking, that's actually not the right word. Or when you use the word slow, I learned to know that I can focus and command my mind. And I know when I'm falling off the rails or most the time, right. So I do that's one of my daily habits is to practice that mindfulness could it's actually very useful. Okay,
Roy Barker 34:14
awesome. Well, we will post the link in okay in the show notes for the positive intelligence, but just tell us, you know, how can they reach out and do that? And then of course, who you know, what, what kind of clients do you work with? How can you help them of course where they can reach out and get ahold of you?
Yeah, so I can be reached at my website is annholm.net and I can be emailed at ann email@example.com. And you there's actually link to book a consultation, I offer free consultations. So if somebody for instance, goes to positive intelligence and they do their they do their positive intelligence assessment, that's free also. They, I'm happy to go over the results with them and just get them started thinking about what that those results could mean and what it might look like in the work that they're doing. So I, I try to, I try to take whatever they're learning about themselves and set it into the, into the current situation that they find themselves. So I'll I'll do that. So it's,
Roy Barker 35:24
yeah, it's an important time for this. And I think we can put this on both the employers and the employee, as an employer, you need to really be aware and be prepared for what to expect if you're bringing people back in in the next few months. But then also, as the employee, you need to recognize who you are and where you are, where you're at. So we have the, I guess, beneficial interaction with others or, you know,
we'd Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. All right. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that's the big challenge, really, as we go back, is, you know, how are we going to manage this very ambiguous situation, so that everybody can bring their best and most flexible self back to work with, you know, and not, you know, derail onto the saboteurs. So,
Roy Barker 36:14
yeah, and it's something I really challenge employers to think about. Because until, you know, we talk pre show, I really haven't even thought of this scenario. I mean, you just, I just didn't and so it is going to be a thing. And we probably need to get out in front of it. So we know how to handle it in a positive manner for everybody. That's correct. Yeah. All right. And well, thanks so much. that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We're on all the major social media platforms as well as all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, for nano one that you use regularly. If you'll let me know I'll be sure and get us added. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.