Nov 17, 2021
Use Neuromarketing Science For More Efficient and Effective Marketing Featuring Felix Cao
What makes your consumers have loyalty? How does the consumer what to connect with you? How do you drive brand loyalty? We have to try to engage our messaging with the consumer with as many senses as possible. Neuromarketing helps us to answer all of these questions, connect with our consumers in a deeper more efficient manner.
About Felix
Felix has accrued over 15 years of business experience when it comes to sales & marketing.
He has been featured in major media outlets, such as the HuffPost, Adweek, and Authority Magazine, and has also appeared on a major Canadian morning radio show, to talk about neuromarketing and the 2019 Canadian election.
You can find him on numerous top podcasts where he shares neuromarketing insights on how businesses can grow and thrive during the pandemic and moving forward into 2021.
Today, at his neuromarketing company called Happy Buying Brain, he is combining his 15 years of business experience with his educational background in biological science and psychology, to help businesses truly understand what makes their customers’ brains tick when it comes to better achieving customer brand loyalty over their competitors, through the power of implementing neuromarketing into their own marketing campaigns.
Listen to more great episodes of The Business of Business Podcast here
www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com
Full Transcript Below
Use Neuromarketing Science For More Efficient and Effective Marketing Featuring Felix Cao
Fri, 7/23 7:12PM • 54:52
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
brain, consumer, people, happening, called, company, brand, restaurants, customer, terms, thinking, marketing, logical, stimulus, emotion, minutes, area, primal, important, cortex
SPEAKERS
Felix, Roy Barker
Roy Barker 00:03
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests, I can talk about a diverse set of topics. We want to try to point some things out that maybe you hadn't thought about or either provides support for things that are keeping you up at night. We also have professionals in many different fields that come on give us their expert opinion and today is no different. We are excited to have Felix Cao back with us he has accrued over 15 years of business experience when it comes to sales and marketing. He has been featured in major media outlets such as the Huffpost, Ad Week, and Authority Magazine and also appeared on major Canadian morning radio show to talk about Neuro Marketing and the 2019 Canadian election. You can find him on numerous top podcast where he shares Neuro Marketing insights on how businesses can grow and thrive during the pandemic. And then of course, moving forward in 2021. Today at his Neuro Marketing company called Happy Buying Brain, he is combining his 15 years of business experience with his educational background in biology, science and psychology to help businesses truly understand what makes our customers brains tick, when it comes to better achieving customer brand loyalty over their competitors, through the power of marketing, implementing Neuro Marketing into their own marketing campaigns. Felix, thanks so much. And welcome to the show. Again, we appreciate you coming back to talk with us.
Felix 01:41
Hi Roy. Well, thank you for having me back on the show. I definitely appreciate it. This is exciting.
Roy Barker 01:45
Yeah, for for visitors, for new listeners that maybe didn't hear you know, your history before. Just give us a brief rundown of kind of what led you to this spot in life?
Felix 01:57
Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, you know, in your introduction, and thank you for the introduction, many, many, many thanks there. So as you touched on, you know, I come from an educational background that strongly resides in biological science and psychology. Right. So, that was, so initially the journey was to go into more of the medical field during that time, but then I got introduced, obviously, to the world of business. And, and from there on, you know, got involved in things, industries, such as finance and investments, which eventually segwayed into the world of technology. So, you know, mobile in the 2010, was very, very popular, it was a growing field. So, you know, I spent nearly a decade there and just coming out of it now, is, is, I believe that we're at the cusp of another type of logical revolution, mainly in artificial intelligence, machine learning. Virtual Reality, when I looked at the landscape of where, let's see, technology was going and I was going to penetrate everyday life was that neuroscience was actually the core of a lot of these innovation. So as we were familiar with, you know, anything that becomes familiarized, or really popular concepts that are related to it, also become more mainstream, right. So, when I, so when neuroscience is now applied to the field of medicine, and technology, what I saw was no for, for the growth of the entire discipline was that actually is going to start to be come a lot more permeated in all the different areas of our lives. And, you know, one of the biggest things that I saw was that neuroscience was going to be a huge thing when it came to marrying the world, the scientific world with marketing and sales and business in general. So, you know, it's really a combination of educational background in 15 plus years of experience, having an extensive background in terms of now, technology for over a decade. And the timing right now seems to be ripe for neuro marketing.
Roy Barker 04:08
Yeah. No, that's awesome. I think it is, like you said, it is time there's so much. There's just so much coming at the daily at the consumer on a daily basis, find a way to you know, kind of hit get to the heart of the issue or whatever they're needing and write best. speak to them because we all like we all like our messaging someone you know, I mean, I'm sure there's groups but different, like different messaging and different things we can do to attract them that may turn another group completely off.
Felix 04:42
Exactly. Yeah. 100% is so Neuro Marketing is really the window that allows the companies to gain that much deeper understanding of you know, the underlying mechanisms that are happening inside their consumers brains, so that they could craft their marketing messages. To connect with them, you know, a lot better, right?
Roy Barker 05:03
Yeah. And we I think we touched on this a little bit last time. But it's not only the marketing message, but right. It's also the packaging of the product. And there's just so much more that, you know, companies really do give a lot of thought over.
Felix 05:17
Yeah, 100% there. So obviously, core brand messaging is a huge component. But it's the entire experience, right? Because you know, you just don't go to a restaurant and just have a good meal. It's the atmosphere, everything that comes along with it very similar to, you know, when consumer has brand loyalty to a specific company, the product is great, let's say but it's also the entire experiencing the packaging. You know, apple, Tiffany's is notorious for the sound that comes when you when, you know, somebody opens the packaging to you know, it, all that stuff adds to the experience for sure. So companies do put a lot of thought into all the details, in addition to the core brand messaging.
Roy Barker 06:00
Yeah, and there's different, just don't want to belabor it, but just the, I think it was one of the chip manufacturers
Felix 06:11
Frito lays no delays.
Roy Barker 06:13
While I was thinking Intel, you know, they had a chip, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they had that little. It was just like a little bump, bump, being bump bone, you know, whenever Yeah, it was instantly recognizable. You didn't have to read the copy or hear what was said. But once you heard that sound, instantly brand new that it was Intel, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't mean to interrupt you on that. The other chip, sorry about that. So what was the Fredo
Felix 06:41
all free delays. But that's a first of all, before we get into that, that's a wonderful way for a company to associate, let's say, the ping of a noise. And then, and then having that connect to their brand, right? So just the fact that, you know, their consumers would hear that sound would activate in their brains, this kind of neuro map of all their experiences, memories, thoughts, and so forth, to bring their product or not and their brand, top of mind. Right. So
Roy Barker 07:09
it's a simple concept, a noise, re and a reaction. But I know that figuring that out is probably not, that's not the simple part. I mean, it's probably a lot of years of research, Oh, 100%. And go into that.
Felix 07:22
Yeah, it's the same idea. I know that Google uses a specific blue, because they've ran tons and tons of tests of it to get people to click on it. So that's one example of something that seems so simple, of having the color of let's say, you know, a little sort of some some words, but also it would impact, you know, their users, say, wanting to, to click on those words, right, based on on the color itself. So it's so much the same idea of that building association between the sound and then connecting it with the brand.
Roy Barker 07:56
Right, right. So what was the talk about the Frito? Lay? What were you gonna say, Oh, yeah,
Felix 08:03
it was just a matter of how when we're talking about the importance of not only core brand messaging, but also the packaging, right. So you know, at that time, you know, in the late 2000s, close to 2000 10s, there Frito lays, you know, was looking to gain greater market share into their female audience and what they're found, what they found, when they ran, you know, studies brain studies is that the packaging was actually done in a, in a nice, shiny type of format, right, and that would activate an area of the brain that was, you know, responsible for decision making, but also guilt. So that, you know, revealed that there was an association happening in the brains of the female participants that whenever, you know, their participants would view shiny, their current shiny for delays package that would also, you know, trigger feelings of guilt eating it, right. So in order for them to, to actually, you know, create a different, a much more positive association, they change their packaging from a shiny style to a more beige and matte style. And what they found when they when they actually conducted brain studies was there's a dramatic reduction in that same area. So now that with that indicated, or suggested that, you know, that the responses from their female participants was a lot more positive to the new packaging. Interesting. Yeah.
Roy Barker 09:32
Amazing how our brain works, and just something so subtle can make such a huge, big
Felix 09:36
difference, right? It's a huge nudge for sure.
Roy Barker 09:39
Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned females and not to pick on them, but I'm sure that consumer goods because they're in the grocery store, typically shopping, I'm sure that consumer goods do a lot of studies, you know, based on females. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well,
Felix 09:55
when we look at it like females, in general, you know, in terms of decision making, for purchasing, it could be as high as 80%. So they're the really main drivers when it comes to, you know, making a lot of the consumer choices, right. And, you know, this is this is very important in terms of, you know, there's a lot of similarities in terms of brain structure, but there's also some, some common are some, some differences that play into the decision making process that companies should be aware of, right. And some of them are, some of these basic brain structures are the limbic system. So that system is more involved in let's say, things such as emotions, memories, and, you know, and social situations, right. So the, the way that that plays out in terms of the the world of marketing is that when, let's say, for example, a company that is looking to, let's say, put out an ad that's targeted more towards female, one of the biggest thing is social harmony, for example, because that part of the brain, the limbic system, you know, one of its core functions is to evaluate things on a social situation. And, and from an evolutionary point of view, as well, that's actually increases the chances of mercy gathering food, for example, to bring back to the family or for childbearing, where even to the day, you know, you have playdates and you have moms coming together. And all that stuff is really the genesis of you know, that that part of the brain that looks at things from, from a social point of view, right, so for a company to come in and create, let's say, an ad, to really want to emphasize that social aspect, and, and show let's say, you know, people in close proximity, but to take that even a notch hires to actually have the, let's say, the people in the ad actually physically touching each other, because that actually activates what we call oxytocin, which is a near, which is a hormone that is responsible for bonding. Right? So this is something that's very common when, let's say, a mother has a baby.
Roy Barker 12:08
No, during that time. Interesting. So I guess there's, well, there used to be an old saying that said that we buy on emotion, and then we justify with logic, right? Still pretty much hold true.
Felix 12:24
Yeah, absolutely. Like one of the things is, there's something called bottom up process processing. So everyone understands or is familiar with left and right brain, right. So left is more logical, right is like more of the creative side, but really, the flow of information. So this is very important that that to mention, as well as understanding how the brain is structured, and how information physically enters the brain. So a lot of that will actually support, you know, the whole notion of buying based on emotion and then backing up based on logic, right, so the flow from the bottom up is actually at the base of your brain is, you know, you really have your reptilian brain, right, or your physical brain, because so that's really responsible, you know, it's, it's fast, impulsive, reflexive, and it's really responsible for your fight or flight type of responses, right? So information goes from that to assess situations that are, let's say, a threat or non threat to the individual. And let's say it passes from there into the next level, which is the midbrain limbic system that we touched on that was more deals with emotions, memories, and social situation. So research and look at things from you know, like, from an emotional point of view, what kind of associates you haven't, that you have good memories, or thoughts of something of the stimuli. And then who else is kind of using this kind of thing, right, and then it passes on to finally the last part of the brain, which is the cortex, and that's your logical part of the brain. So I started to look at things from like a statistical point of view figures, facts and things like that. So when you actually see how that path of information gets gets traveled, at first, that's where the emotion kind of comes in at the midbrain. And then let's say that's all it makes a purchase and then it finally gets to the last part of the brain to receive information which is the cortex and that's the logical part. Yeah,
Roy Barker 14:13
I think I was just thinking about Car and Truck advertising and the difference because typically you know the woman would drive the car right but you see like you said the touching you usually see I'm taking a lot of times children to events are dropping out of school. But then when we you know you never see on like a gas split in a injector fuel injector open and saying, hey, look at the flow of this thing. Exactly. But when we talk about the trucks, I guess targeting men in the group is you know, it's a lot more about the power and how tough it is, you know, dropping stuff in the bed of it not too many people hugging and you know,
Felix 14:56
doing all the 100% right. If you're looking towards something that's gravitating more to the social concept, then then of course, it's more like, Oh, we, you want to buy this SUV, because you could fit the family in there. And you have more space for, let's say, the baby stroller so to speak. But, you know, for for, let's say, the male demographic, you know, that might be important as well. But it's also, you know, like, Can I take this off roading? Right, like, so it's kind of like a different type of approach, even though there is crossover. But, you know, probably off roading is on the mind of most male consumers who are looking at bigger vehicles, especially trucks. Right, exactly.
Roy Barker 15:37
So, you know, it's we're in an interesting time coming out of the pandemic. have, have you noticed any? Are there any large consumer shifts that are happening? Or is everybody still kind of holding back kind of still wait and see attitude right this moment?
Felix 15:56
Yeah, that's a good question. I think right now, it's a maybe a combination of both, I think, from the consumer point of view, you know, it seems like they like the consumers want to go out and actually experience life, again, and from a business point of view, of course, they're looking to make up for that revenue, but also at the same time being very strategic in terms of how they reopen. So it's a little bit of this Dad's going on, because nobody knows what's gonna happen, you know, in the next foreseeable future.
Roy Barker 16:27
Yeah, there was a story not like, yes, this week or last week about that, that, you know, while everybody was home, and stranded, a lot of home improvement projects. Yeah, that the airlines have opened, backed up, people have like, ditched the home improvement project
Felix 16:43
and jumped on the plane to go wherever they wanted to go. Right. Yeah, I remember reading about that, as well. So it's, it's quite a, it's quite changed. And I think that everybody wants to kind of have things returned back to normal as much as possible.
Roy Barker 16:56
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a and the other thing, I think, you know, for our businesses out there, they've been struggling with some staff shortages in places, also some of their raw materials shortage, is that right? You know, in talking about home builders, the price of lumber has just skyrocketed. But anyway, even the local restaurants, we were talking about the, you know, ingredients in some restaurants that have been short. So, I mean, the businesses are dealing with a lot of challenges. Mm hmm.
Felix 17:31
Yeah, there's a lot of things on the on, you know, that's on the radar for sure, dealing with, you know, like workers, you know, employment, can you bring in the labor force to come in and run the business, and all the way through to, you know, like, the materials to actually create the consumer product. And then, and also, you know, people are probably are in a different state of mind, as well, as they make this transition into more of the social world, if you want to call it real life, social world. So there's a lot of different, you know, variables that come into things, as you know, we approached the next stage here.
Roy Barker 18:11
Yeah. And, you know, we were talking earlier, you mentioned grass and your rotation. And, you know, I see that in some consumers, it's, it's a trying time, because it's like, some people are trying to open up and get back to normal, and maybe it's not happening as fast for them. Right? I think if you're the, you're the neuroscientist that can really give the answer. But do you think that there's like a lot of pent up frustration and anxiety that consumers are kind of bringing into this time period?
Felix 18:44
Well, definitely, like when we look at it from, you know, a neuroscience point of view that the primal brain, you know, is certainly in a heightened state or a much more heightened state of, let's say, anxiety, anxiety, uncertainty, due to all the turbulence that's happening, right. So, really, when you look at the brand, so the brand is this a verb, our emotional state, is to really help the consumer come to a level where it alleviates a lot of those, let's say stress is if you want to call it that, right. So that's the main goal of, you know, of a brand to help return that level of normalcy, so that they could, you know, just have some sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, which is something that has been, you know, highly affected over the last probably year and a half during that time. And, and, and there's, there's certain, of course, a certain ways like on a one to one interaction or, and so forth of how that would affect, let's say, a business in terms of how to, you know, what, we increase the effectiveness, and we could touch on that as well. And I think, you know, we talked about sleep, being very, very important because, you know, try tries to resolving a situation when you have You know, one or both parties in an agitated state? Right, right, right, like the primal brain is, is highly active and it shuts off the cortex. So the logical the logical part of the brain goes offline. So,
Roy Barker 20:16
no, I was just gonna saying, I think that we can even talk a little bit about how businesses really need to take care of their employees through this time. Because, you know, companies that are short of people, the people that do show up there, right, you know, from candy cane, and right, get tired, and then it just takes one little lag, Hey, you got that order wrong. And it's like, you know, it's, it's unnecessary, I understand why it happens. But if we, as employers, we need to not only monitor our employees, make sure they're getting their rest or have their chance to get even right, say, I'm fine, I can do another double. At some point, we have to, you know, be the logical one and say, Look, you really need to rest before bad. And, you know, we noticed this in, I used to do a lot of work in the senior living industry and be like in a nursing home environment. And what we noticed was that, that was when staff tended to be more abusive, not necessarily physical, but more short with the residents or verbally abusive, when they had worked a couple of double shifts, there's not enough staff, they know, they're going to have to keep doubling, they're missing their bright family events, and that their agitation level just was increases. Yeah, it's just right on the cusp. So any little thing would just put them over the edge. And I think that we're not seeing it wholesale. But I think that if we're not careful, we will see a lot of that, you know, in some industries out there today,
Felix 21:53
that's a great, great point that you brought up in terms of being overworked, burned out, and not having time to spend less time with loved ones. And friends. And from a company point of view that this obviously, meal, there's ways to support, let's say, your employees and your and the people that work with you, that really make the company run. And as I mentioned, one is sleep. And the reason why that's so is it does several things, it's it actually prunes the pathways in the brain, and really and strengthen the ones that that are in use. So what that does is, it pretty much clears the highway from for like neurons to speak to each other. So So what it does is, when someone's in a confused state, it's easy to get agitated. So sleep really kind of opens up these highways, so that the you know, the cells within the brain can communicate with each other, which reduces the chances of someone getting frustrated, right. So that's why getting adequate sleep really, really matters because it strengthens, you know, really highways that are important, and really reduces or cleans out the ones that are not in use, right. So that's one reason. The second reason why you know, it's important to get a good rest is it, it actually allows the brain to consolidate what you learn in that day. So your memories get strengthened. So it moves it from an area called the hippocampus, which is kind of like your short term and medium term memory. And then it gets transported to your cortex for long term storage if you want. So that way, when I say, the next day you wake up well rested, it's the exact same idea where someone does not feel agitated, because their thoughts are a lot more clear on what they need to do. Right. So that's the power the neuroscience behind you know, the importance of good sleep, you know, the other one actually is taking walks being around nature. And what it does is it calms the the primal brain by actually strengthening the cortex, which in this case, it's like if you just see as an organization, you have the executive team, like the leadership team, that lets you communicate with Mr. frontline workers. And if if the leadership team is all in disarray, then you can bet that, you know, the workers underneath are going to do whatever they want. And before you know, you just have a big mass, right, so by having a very, very strong leadership team that could actually help, you know, communicate effectively with their workers, then you have you know, something that is a much more well run organization. And that's what happens when the say taking walks or being around nature is that part of the brain or the leadership team becomes a lot more strengthened. And it's able to regulate the primal brain, you know, a lot more effectively. Right? So those are two big things to keep in mind. The third thing is having support programs that facilitate you know, being social even having fun outside of work. I think that's building that rebuilding that camaraderie again, I had been missing for the last year and a half. So by buying those things, as you know, that's how companies could support their workers. Yeah. And
Roy Barker 25:05
what about stimulus? I was just thinking, because sometimes it, it kind of acts like lack of sleep for me is that if you're in a heavy stimulus environment, you just got things coming at you got the questions and this and always, you know, having to kind of be on on your step thinking about this next thing, right? If we have a lot of that in a short period of time that can I, I'm asking as a question, does that act, kind of like, you know, going for a long time without getting any sleep that it just wears our brain down?
Felix 25:39
Yeah, 100%, because at the end of the day, our brains need time to rest and recover. Right? So burnout is, you know, it's a likely scenario. So during that time, there's only so many second wins that someone could get. Right. So it's the same idea. So even though you know, the person may be going off of, let's say, adrenaline, and all the other good stuff, but but what ends up happening is, it becomes a law of diminishing returns as well. So even though let's say, there's just much more benefit to let's say, study for, you know, a short period of time than just dragging it out, and not sleeping for three days and pulling all nighters, even though if you look at the time itself, it's like, well, someone dedicated, you know, let's say, 20 hours over three days, but they're not going to remember anything, because as I mentioned before, during sleep, that's how your memories and your learning gets consolidated. Right? So there's this kind of like this, this middle ground, that that needs to happen in terms of optimize, optimizing someone's, you know, thought process and regulating their emotions. Yeah.
Roy Barker 26:41
Yeah. Like you said, that what works for me well, is that walk, sometimes just taking a little 15 minute walk, it makes a world of difference to just kind of clear your head. And, you know, I know, there's a lot of research on the creative part, too, is that, you know, we cannot be creative. When we're constantly being bombarded with stimulus. We have to have that quiet. Yeah. To think and be creative.
Felix 27:06
100% agree with you on that. Yeah, those those walks? I mean, they're so valuable, it seems, you know, it's 20 1520 minutes, but they, but what it does on a neurological level on the brain, is, it's significant. Yeah. Right. So it's, yeah, it This allows, you know, clear thinking allows the primal brain to be a lot more regulated and under control, and rather than have it like, act as a loose cannon, and that's when a lot of the kind of irrational behaviors happen where, you know, it just takes a little to put someone over the top. Yeah.
Roy Barker 27:39
Right. So I think you mentioned, maybe it was pre show, or last time we talked that stress can actually reduce parts of the brain is that did I get that? Right?
Felix 27:52
Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. So right now, obviously, for for some people, you know, that's a reality, right? So based on all the different circumstances, and on a brain level, what ends up happening is we talked about the cortex, which is like the leadership executive team, right. So stress actually reduces the amount of area they called gray, or gray area, or this thing, that that part of the brain, let's say, your executive team, you know, shrinks pretty much, so they're there. And then what ends up happening is there's a part of the brain called the amygdala, which is your kind of your emotion, area of the brain that's found in the midbrain, or midbrain, your primal brain, and that's where a lot of your fears and that kind of stuff comes out, that area to actually grow gets bigger. So you have this executive team at the top, kind of shrink. And then you have the the megillah, which is your emotions, and one of its fear. You know, there's a big imbalance here. So that so that's why, you know, stress has a has a big effect on, you know, the the areas the brain, and that's one way to look at as a comic, the power of balance of a shrinking executive team and a growing, you know, a growing base underneath it that without control is, is acts like a loose cannon.
Roy Barker 29:06
Yeah. Yeah. And I know, this is kind of off topic from sales and marketing. But I guess I think it's important because of the damage, you know, if we're not careful, if we don't think all this through the drain that we can do to our company to our brand, that can be permanent. I mean, sometimes we don't get out from under that. If we've got staff that's on the ragged edge, and maybe they don't treat our customers, right. And then, you know, we've got, again, Alaska says a question, but it seems that we have a little bit more of the canceled culture, right, and go on. So it's like, if if I come into your establishment and I feel like you've wronged me, then I'm like, I am never going back and I'm telling everybody, you know, I'm telling all my friends never go back. You know, sometimes it amounts to something. Sometimes it doesn't, but really, as a business owner, you In the fragile environment that we're operating in, right, this moment, you just can't really chance any of that. Right?
Felix 30:07
Yeah, so the Catholic culture is, especially now that everybody pretty much has the voice on social media and on the internet, right. So that's, so for a company, it's, it's almost like you, the way they'll look at is the reason why that really exists. And really, it's a kind of like a dichotomy of polar opposites, as they say, right, like, it's big contrast between A and B, for example, but to really get down to it is to really break out this us versus them type of thinking, is the final way to make you know, as, as the your consumer base as inclusive as possible in different circles. So really, you're expanding your click to these different areas of value, that also overlap with the consumer. So before it would be, for example, was this based on product, you someone would go to a company, and they would really, really like the product. And then and then that's how kind of like the relationship was built on. But now as we see it, and brands are now offering to extend and deal with more social matters, for example, you know, equality, gender, all that stuff now. So now it's like, you know, companies that go beyond just okay, we provide the best products and services, so come to us and, and your value it to now it's like, okay, we probably provide the best price and services. But also, we understand that, okay, this is some of your values as well, we share some of those values. So that's something that's becoming really important as the company is expanding, kind of like their web of values, right. So that it starts to, you know, really get connected with their consumers as more of a whole rather than just product service by
Roy Barker 31:48
relationship. Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned that because I just did an interview with an author, land, Yap, she wrote, The altruistic capitalist, okay, you know, basically, you know, what we were talking about is, you know, these companies are getting squeezed on three sides, the consumer wants him to be socially, environmentally, socially, and management responsible, but investors are actually asking for that same thing. And now, employees are kind of stepping up and wanting that same thing. So companies are, you know, they're really gonna get squeezed into doing the right things. And, you know, it's just a matter of making sure that we develop some checks and balances, because, you know, one of my questions always is, and I can tell you, I'm environmentally sensitive, while I'm, you know, porn, you know, toxic waste out the back door here. So, you know, it's easy, sometimes it's easier said than done.
Felix 32:47
Exactly. I think as you brought some really good points there in terms of that would be more of an accountability, accountability issue, right? When you know, somebody, or let's say, an entity or a brand, for example, a company or business mentions that they're going to do a certain task, do they actually carry out with it? Right. And, you know, social media is, that's one of the things that has enabled people the ability to self express themselves and brands to have social identities as well. And that's how, you know, the ability to communicate effectively. And I think that's where the key is that the communication options, all those channels are, there's now how, from a brand point of view, how did they communicate with their consumers, based on let's say, carrying through ensuring accountability for what it is that they had mentioned? Right, and broadcast to the public?
Roy Barker 33:40
Yep, had one other question kind of back on the council on the canceled culture, and kind of this maybe like a heightened state of agitation that right, people are in for, you know, what we all the uncertainties that we've talked about. So it's part of this lack of an illusion of control issues that things have been so out of everybody's control. It's, these things have been forced on us for the last year. So now I've got some control to write get on social media and I realized social media, the reach that we have there has influenced it some but do we? Do you think that it's part of this trying to gain a little bit of control back of our life?
Felix 34:24
I think I think that's the goal for pretty much anybody. Right? wouldn't wouldn't really look at I think what has happened has this kind of open the doors to more what was really going on? And then But, yeah, that's, you know, in terms of that sense of control, it's, it could be just, you know, can I communicate with this person? Could I share my ideas, right, so, that's something I don't think will ever ever change is is now there's a lot more opportunities and channels to share and to express. You know, what someone is feeling I'm thinking so in terms of that is this, you know, that's just the way that we're, we're moving in terms of, you know, a wide platform for people to communicate. But there's also things that come out of it, where, obviously, you know, they would have to be, you know, there's certain things that that comes with, like the good part, like the positives and negatives of, of any situation. Right. So is this a matter of how do we navigate this, to make sure people are still heard, but done in a way that continues to move our society forward?
Roy Barker 35:34
Yeah. And I've always communicated with businesses as a consumer, because, you know, a lot of times I feel like the business may not know what's going wrong, right? They're not necessarily their own customer every day. So sometimes it just doesn't hurt to politely I'll stress, I politely, you know, reach out to the company and say, Hey, I had this experience. And then if, if they're good, and they do what they're supposed to by saying, well, we probably made a mistake, let me know, we'll fix it. That's awesome. You know, but, again, we've talked a little bit about reviews and things like that. Don't throw gasoline on that when either and, you know, just started Yeah, well, you're pretty bad consumer. So yeah, right. Because I have seen those where it's like, you know, somebody reaches out with what may be a legitimate issue. And the business owner just goes crazy on them
Felix 36:26
exactly what it comes down, as you mentioned, to to accountability as well, right for the for a bow, but it's almost like, the way to see is it the responsibility lies on all parties involved. So at the end of the day, a company can only control what they can control this, like in real life, an individual could only control what they can control. So so the approach needs to be a very holistic approach where it takes in all these different factors and variables, rather than singling one variable out, and saying that, hey, we fixed this, everything else is going to fall in this place. But here, as you mentioned, you know, there's a lot of a lot of changes that are happening, or that has happened over the last a year and a half, that are influencing the way that people think feel and expressing themselves. So so the, you know, the concept needs to take in all those different, all those different drivers. And then find the best way to make all make everything align as best as possible. So that as a unit, or as a collective unit. It moves from in the direction that you want it to come rather than Okay, you fix one thing, but then the muffler falls off, for example, right. So there's different aspects to the situation that has a much greater chance of success when they're addressed together.
Roy Barker 37:43
Yeah, yeah, there's a good technique, it's called something about the difference between how you how you react and how you respond, you know, we can take that all in. But if we'll take about 234, breaths before we actually respond, sometimes we'll be much better off in the long run for that.
Felix 38:03
Exactly. That's a great point, there's actually a book and maybe that's what you're alluding to, by Mel Robbins written in 2017, called the five second rule. And that's, that's probably where, you know, there's probably connection between that, but it was pretty much saying that, you know, confronted with a situation, instead of this acting out, really quick, take take the time to count backwards 54321. Because what that does, that actually, you know, allocates the blood from that agitated part of the brain, where it's so easy to just like, you know, lash out at somebody back into the cortex, so it turns it back on, and then it turns the logical side of the, you know, the process back and then from there on, you know, it could be one step to reducing an impulsive action, for example, but it also works the other way, where if someone's in the, let's say, Stage or Stage of procrastination, also, counting down from five will, will bring the blood flow back into the cortex, and then that would be the moment to act otherwise, you know, nobody's going to take any action. And, you know, things get procrastinate or delayed for X amount of time. Right. So, so same idea there, but the neurosciences, well, how are you? How are you allocating the blood flow from one area of the brain to the next, in order to really turn on the part of the brain that you need to work? Well, that's
Roy Barker 39:29
cool. I'm gonna try that. I need to take the trash out after a while. I'm gonna do that and see if I can get motivated.
Felix 39:35
Yeah, exactly. So so there's different things and you know, the, the primal brain and the logical brain. It's almost like this tug of war, because the primal brain wants things now, it's almost like a little kid, right? Once it's now it's impulsive. Whereas the logical brain is like the grown up adult, for example, or the parent, and they're more in the private brain or the logical brain is more long term thinking. So it's a matter of, you know, how do you come up with strategies To make them work together very similar to your situation with, you know, you're taking businesses with, you know, consumers and so forth. And everyone is having this big conversation with each other. And then, but making sure that the conversations are, are, you know, very valuable and an effective right in terms of moving things in the right direction, as opposed to just, you know, talking about a bunch of things and then adding more, more powder to the to the keg, if you want to call it
Roy Barker 40:27
you're at. Yeah, so what are some, let's look at the some, as we open up, a lot of let's just kind of stick with restaurants for a minute, because some of them have kind of limited menus for cut it down to be more manageable, they're still doing a lot of takeout, and they still encourage a lot of takeout. I know that, you know, we've had places around here that, you know, they just have to close the dining room down because they don't have staff to staff. But what are some things that businesses can do to, I guess, to be proactive with the consumer about it? I don't know coaxing them back or, you know, trying to write need to let them know kind of what's going on. So that doesn't have to turn into a thing everybody can understand, not the way we want to operate. Unfortunately, we just have to operate this way.
Felix 41:21
Yeah, so the number one thing is obviously to make it safe. if let's say you're a restaurant, and you have a dining room. That's the number one thing, right? So let's say that there's a restaurant that's open. And they want to encourage people to come that they know it's going to be safe, but also quipped at the same time, they're not sitting there waiting for you know, two hours to get a seat. So they're gonna have to have the restaurants gonna have some sort of system in place to facilitate that. That just that that traffic, let's say gets really, really busy. Because the last thing, especially right now is have a have a waiting consumer, because our primal brain already, he goes, look, I want Now's my opportunity to get out and then have some sort of social life other than this thing at home for the last 18 months. But now let's see, they get there. And then and then they find out that they have to now wait another half an hour, two hours, or whatever it is like that is going to really take someone over the edge. Right. So So what, you know, one of the things is this having processes in place, where it could help facilitate kind of like that, that type of traffic if or even, you know, one of the one of the restaurants is one thing they could do is assuming they have the resources, is that shakes bad and their patio. Yeah. Right. So that's something that you know, like, because chances are most restaurants, they can't just knock down a wall. And then like put more tables in there. But the patio assuming that there's space there, that's a much more cost efficient way to add more chairs. That would be instead of, you know, without doing that needed, the customer that waits there for two hours now only has to know that the waiting times a lot shorter, right.
Roy Barker 42:57
Yeah, and we've seen around here, some that have even taken up some of their parking space, you know, they have enough extra parking against some of those front parking spaces and setting up tents and outside
Felix 43:07
darkly doing those, those things that will make a big difference for the customer experience. Right. And obviously, you know, everybody has kind of been inside for the last year and a half is Yeah, is is now will continue to, to market and to get the front of mine again. Right. So that's gonna be huge thing in terms of, you know, being being on the radar again.
Roy Barker 43:31
Yeah, yeah. And I think communication, we can't over stress that enough, as we just have a good open line of communication and the gym that I go to, they actually put a meter on the little, you have an app that you have to show the card when you walk in the door, but they put a little meter on it to show how crowded it is. Right? You know, and I think that was pretty cool. Because he can evaluate even if you want to go over there or not, let's just don't even think about the COVID process for a minute just you know, want to go to crowded gym and stand around and wait to get on machine. So it allows a customer to be a little bit more informed. And you know, some of these restaurants would do good at just being honest. And you know, some of them think that they're doing there. Some of them think that they're being a little bit tricky by saying, Oh, yeah, well, just 15 minutes, but you know, when 15 turns in 45 then all you've done is really make some people mad.
Felix 44:31
Exactly. So that's actually really neat to hear that the the gym that you go to actually has that type of neuroscience is called biometrics. It's almost like oh, what's your heart rate? Right or like that's what is or the dilation of the people are people for example, or you know, for instruments that are measuring this kind of like your physiological reaction and responses to stimuli. So from the outside, for example, you know, in the in the medical field, let's say in the operation room, you know that they would hook you up to those machines, and they'll show you your heart rate so, so you would know how the person is actually where they're at, on a physiological level. So the same thing applies not to those of the gym or the restaurant, where people know, there's some sort of indication or external indicator that says all this restaurants like 90%, full, for example. So that's going to impact whether someone's okay with coming there, know that they're gonna wait a long time or being like, okay, you know, what, maybe I'm gonna have to have a look at another, another option, right? And that's one of the reasons why Uber and no log companies follow suit is to have, you're able to track your Uber driver, because that eliminates the stress of, you know, where's my food? Right, it eliminates that fear, right? So it brings that level of certainty and be like, Oh, you know, like, the food is only five minutes away, and so forth. It's, that's, that's a similar type of concept. When it comes to Oh, this restaurant is, you know, 80% 90% full? Do I want to go here or not? Yeah.
Roy Barker 46:02
Right. And that applies to a lot of things. And I just, I'll use me, for example, is, you know, you want to be patient, and you want to wait, so let's take food delivery, it's like, they said, it'd be here in 20 minutes, okay, it's been 30. But you know, what, they're behind traffic, we've got all this stuff. And so you can be patient. And then all of a sudden, when you're at 45 minutes, you're like, Hey, we're, you know, it's kind of like, there's this line where you're patient, you're bright. But you never know, you know, when do I when do I not be patient? When do I pick up the phone and give somebody a call and don't want to rush them? Right? Let there's external circumstances. And so this is, again, backward communication, and, you know, implementing whatever we can try and help that customer understand where they are in their journey. It just, it's invaluable. Oh, exactly. So
Felix 46:55
you know, having some sort of system that will let someone know, almost like an ordering system, for example, you're at the back, working and creating the the meals, there's some sort of timeline? Like, if you look at fast food restaurant, for example, they'll let you know, hey, like in 60 seconds, where should it be along the way? Pretty much. And the same thing would apply from a consumer point of view, when they're looking to engage with the company, right? It's kind of like, I'm waiting in line here, what position on my end line, you know, and then the groceries are in the earlier like, they I think they removed that system was everybody used to take a ticket? You remember that? Oh, you wanted you wanted your favorite cold cut? meats, for example, here's the machine and take a number, we'll call your number. So at least you like, you know, it's very straightforward. It's hard to say, hey, look up before you write if someone's holding a ticket with it with a number closer to be in front of line, so it's a similar idea.
Roy Barker 47:48
I'm like, yeah, that back. That's pretty good. Except it backfired at the driver's license office, you know, when you walk up there, and you see the click, and like, they're on number 10. And you pull, like, number 312? off of the machine.
Felix 48:01
Yeah, so there's always gonna be some sort of variation, right? Where, where it could work for or, in that case, you know, a lot of people, because they're not too excited to renew, to do those tasks. But but if someone goes, Oh, look, I'm moving up in the light. And I know that, hey, I'm gonna, let's say, finally get seated and have a meal, then the type of anticipation is different, right. So there's different what's happening is the dopamine is the activities, the two different activities or have a different impact on the dopamine levels. Right.
Roy Barker 48:33
Well, Felix, we appreciate you taking time out of your day to come talk with us. This is all great information. I just, you know, I think that this is such an interesting discipline. And it's needed. I mean, you know, as sales and as marketing, we want to be able to reach our customers, give them the message and write all the activities that we need to do, you know, in order to make that a pleasant experience, for sure. Perfect.
Felix 48:59
Well, yeah, it's, you know, it's always a pleasure to speak with you right to be on your podcast, and I'm absolutely privileged to be a returning guest on here. And I hope that our conversation here is gonna provide a lot of insights to help your listeners in their entrepreneurial journey.
Roy Barker 49:18
Yeah, yeah, it will. And I'll do like I did last time, I'll, you know, extend an invitation to get you back on here and two or three. So you kind of, you know, how this environment has changed. And, you know, if there's anything that as businesses that we need to be doing, you know, a little bit different to take care of, you know, the other thing we talked a lot about prospects, but also to take care of our current customers. I mean, that's, yeah, that's an important thing. Sometimes we, you know, and I'm, I'm guilty of that we think about how we're going to get the next new guy and we're not thinking about taking care of the people. God already. That's
Felix 49:52
a really that's really good one is there. That's why they're a customer, right? It's it would make sense to take care of them. So I think that goes a huge way and the consumer, the customer, and they'll definitely remember that.
Roy Barker 50:05
Yeah. All right, well, tell us give us another tool or another habit, he was something that you do every day, that really adds a lot of value to your life, either professionally or personally,
Felix 50:19
I would say, meditating, meditating even for 1015 minutes, you know, it is certainly has a way to rewire the brain makes things a lot more calmer, clears up the thinking. And that's something that will, you know, generally what I found my personal experience to impact how the rest of the goes, right. So, you know, personally, that's something that has been effective for in my own life. And, you know, hopefully, that will encourage some people to try that and then see how it affects, you know, their life moving forward. Yeah,
Roy Barker 50:52
I'm pretty new at this. I've been trying it. And one thing I implemented was in the evening, too, because it gives me a little bit of separation from whatever I was doing until, you know, trying to lay down and sleep exactly, head. But, you know,
Felix 51:06
what I have to say is, I am not good at it. And I find myself some days being all over the place, but I think it's one of these things, you just have to stay after it. Yeah, you just practice, right? Like, there's no easy way around it. Like as much as we like to take, you know, some sort of accelerated shortcut, it isn't a matter of, you know, it's like, typically, if you know, a baby's getting born, it needs nine months. Yeah, thing, right. So let's say anything rushing it. It does, it does, it does, like it typically does not work as well as we'd like to like it to.
Roy Barker 51:39
Yeah, and the other thing, I'm gonna start, I've heard this last week is a guy that he actually implemented a little, maybe not, you know, 10 minutes, but maybe two or three of meditation and breathing in between when switching tasks. And I thought, wow, that's an awesome idea. Because I've never thought of that, you know, you're fully engaged in whatever you're doing. And you have to stop and try to engage. And it takes just a little bit of time to make that transition. So anyway, that's I think that's really cool.
Felix 52:09
Yeah, that's very similar to the whole idea of taking naps throughout the day, rather than just having a big sleep a night. Right. So yeah, so it's this on a micro scale, is kind of like these mini meditation sessions in between each, each task to allow the brain maybe to make sense of all the different activities and kind of create some sort of barrier, so it doesn't get all mushed together, right.
Roy Barker 52:36
Actually, I saw Sorry, I'm gonna ask you one more question. Yeah, absolutely. No, there just was actually a I read a piece just the other day about napping in the afternoon. Again, I don't know. It's trying to make a resurgence, you know, make a resurgence. But they were just saying, you know, how much more productive that we could be? Right, by taking I think it said like a 30 minute nap. Which depending on that?
Felix 53:00
Well, there are studies, I believe in Europe, that's a quite common practice. I can't remember the specific country so but but from what I recall, and of course, we could always look at is Sweden, the highly encourage that. And it seems to maybe have the same effect, as you know, that the one tip, which is to have those kind of like mini naps, or meditation sessions in between, right, and allows like the brain to kind of recharge itself instead of just going full throttle for so long. So so it's so it's like, it's really a way for the brain is to contact brakes. Now, so that could begin to like kind of recharge, you know, consolidate the the memories and so forth. And, and then get going again, because, you know, as much as we'd like to go at 100%. You know, that's a that's a fast way to go to Burnham. Oh, two.
Roy Barker 54:00
Right. Alright, Felix, I certainly appreciate it. We'll get you back on here. And we can talk a lot more as a lot of great information for our audience for sure.
Felix 54:09
Excellent. You bet.
Roy Barker 54:10
So that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. Of course, you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We're on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, we're not a one that you listened to please reach out I'd be glad to get it added and make it easier for your listening. Also, we're on all the major social media platforms, probably hanging out on Instagram a little bit more than anywhere else. So reach out there. We'd love to interact with you. A video of this interview will go up on our YouTube channel, so be sure and check that out when the episode goes live. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.
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