Nov 2, 2021
Effective Sales Messages Result In Increased Leads, Sales, and Profits Featuring Herbert Innocent
Messaging is a must today. It's tricky. How much is enough? How much is too much? Who are we talking to? What channels do they live on? How often should we be messaging? These are all great questions we need to be asking ourselves. What do we need to drive traffic to our site, our funnel, our podcast or wherever we need our audience to go.
I help virtual entrepreneurs just like you create sales messages that resonate with ideal clients, inspiriting them to buy or take action that transforms their lives.
If you really hope to attract more clients, get more bookings consistently, and land more sales often then I can definitely help you.
I am are awesome at making your sales message click with clients and my accomplishments include:
Studied Bio-Medial Engineering at The University of Trinity College Dublin, that's when I discovered my love for creating for world-class customer experience.
Self-Taught Copywriter, because this is the absolute best way to make more sales every virtual entrepreneur needs. But it takes time to learn and master.
He's also an entrepreneur, Co-Founder of Ladybird Dynamics, an Author of Behind The Lens, and a Podcast Host. Bringing the latest from the business experts, world-leading CEOs, and TEDx speakers on the show The Virtual Entrepreneur. To Help Your Grow Your Business.
Has over 6 years of experience creating visual marketing content for other businesses and writing website copy, sales copy for a diverse business types, from services-based businesses to high tech businesses landing big businesses clients like Huawei, Tangent, and LaunchBox, just to name a few.
Has been published in the Irish Times.
He's a Long-distance runner and can be found in the outdoors enjoys traveling and meeting new people.
When you want to create a sales message that resonates with your ideal customers, inspiriting them to buy from you, I'm the one who can help you click with clients.
I will definitely help you attract more clients, get more bookings consistently, and make more sales!
Full Transcript Below
Effective Sales Messages Result In Increased Leads, Sales, And Profits Featuring Herbert Innocent
Mon, 7/19 3:08PM • 1:10:35
people, clients, message, talking, buy, emotions, product, entrepreneurs, ideal clients, email, questions, Herbert, communication, communicate, work, feel, action, package, podcast, learn, Effective Sales Messages
Herbert, Roy Barker
Roy Barker 00:00
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Roy, of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that can talk about a diverse set of topics. Hopefully we can bring something to your attention that maybe you haven't thought about before, are the other thing we can do is also put people in front of you that can help you with things that are keeping you up at night.
So today, we've been waiting quite a while to get her on with us. So we're very happy, Herbert innocent he is. He helps virtual entrepreneurs create sales messages that resonate with their ideal clients, inspiring them to buy or take action study, he studied biomed Engineering at the University of Trinity College in Dublin. And that's when he discovered his love for creating world class customer experiences.
He's a self taught copywriter, an entrepreneur, co founder of ladybird dynamics and author of behind the lens, and a podcast host. He's a long distance runner, and can be found in the outdoors, enjoying travel and meeting new people. Herbert, thanks for taking time out of your day to be with us. We certainly appreciate it.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity and for having me on your show. Yeah, I'm
Roy Barker 01:21
gonna call you out on this long distance running that, you know, the first time I see a guy running down the street, and he's got a big smile on his face, I might take it up. But you know, so many times you see these guys, and it's like, well, do I need to pull over and help this guy? Is he gonna make it? Yeah. Well, we appreciate you being here with us today. You know, read a little bit of your story. You were in the biomedical engineering. And then you kind of I guess you've kind of discovered that you really did love working with customers and helping people create a good experience. And that that's kind of what led you to Trent's to kind of transition into the sales messaging and copywriting.
Yeah, so essentially, for me, my backstory in 60 seconds, I mean, 90 seconds, let's try and see if we can make it. So my backstory 90 seconds is back in high school and with my friend, and we have an interest in using the skills we have for building technology, and engineering to help people. So we build this project, which is a door that is designed to be opened by a wristband by anybody with, you know, a physical disability, especially if they're on a wheelchair, because when your chair, when you're in a chair, you can't reach for the handle.
So we build this project. Long story short, it works perfect. But the problem comes when the judges pick a project that has very little impact on the quality of life of our project, as you know, as a project that deserves recognition. And for my friend and me, this is really devastating, because how can they not see the value of what we are trying to do? And so that became the starting point for what makes people choose this against this? What makes people buy here against here? Why do we vote for the people, we vote for all these questions?
Yeah, that's when I became very, very curiously. And that road led me to starting my own businesses and learning about businesses and learning how even a small entrepreneur and a business owner can learn a very, you know, powerful big client in the market space, really, by just utilizing the language and communicating what the prospects are looking for documented, or build a team of people who are so well, you know, advancing the expertise, but by just using those messages, so inspiring them to take action when you want them to take action, instead of just winging it.
Roy Barker 03:51
Yeah, that's a good point that I assume that like you were saying in the contest that you have that judges, maybe they don't do it. They don't know they do it, but I guess their bias to their experiences and their opinions it sometimes it may not mean one project is better. It's like, Oh, well, I know, have trouble with this thing. And this solves it. So then I'm going to be a little bit more biased to choose that something that kind of like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, I think it's not just that, too. It's also you know, when you're talking to people, we often make this mistake of assuming they are thinking of what we are thinking we assume they are on the same page, as we are. But if you think about it, we are rarely on the same page. Right? Usually it takes an instant for someone to bring us to the page that they want us to be so we can begin the communication. Right? So for the judges, they have the rags for the judges, they didn't have anyone associated with this so they couldn't see it.
But for the people invested like the teachers and all this Prince and all the people who were you know who took the time to understand The story of why we were inspired by this project, they felt really hurt that we couldn't, you know, this idea this project couldn't be brought to the people who needed it, right.
And so I think it's that knowing that the people you're talking to, are in completely different plays the second ad, right, when you run an ad, people are so busy scrolling, watching cat videos, so you need to bring them you need to grab their attention, and then bring them to where to where you want them to be in terms of the state of mind. Right? So it's that thing there and then delivering the message once you get there. Yeah,
Roy Barker 05:36
you know, that's a good point. Because, you know, like me and my girlfriend, I can be sitting here all day, just cooking up with good idea, thinking hard on how we can do this different or do something better. Now, mind you, I've been sitting here thinking about this all day, you know, kind of run into Dover making some notes.
And then no, maybe we're sitting around eating dinner, I'm like, Hey, I got this idea. And I lay it on her. And she's like, you know? And, and I'm kind of like, come on, catch up. And, you know, it's, you have to stop and think that I've been given this a lot of thought, and she's like, I don't have any idea what you're talking about. So I think that's probably a really good idea to keep in mind when we're trying to write, say, well, when we're trying to write a message to anybody, I guess we can look at our messaging to our prospects and our current consumers.
But we can also think about writing it to people on our team, if they're not, you know, maybe me and you have had a long discussion about this project, and how we're going to move forward. But if the other two teammates haven't been involved in that conversation, then you know, they're, they're at a deficit of information.
Mm hmm. And I think one of the things that you when you, when you're talking out it kept jumping, in my mind is this old phrase that Tony Robbins used to say, back in the day when he was, you know, teaching in seminars? I don't know if he still say that. But the phrase is that, he asked the question, why do we communicate, right?
And people will think there's bazillions reasons we communicate. But really, there's just one reason which was shocking to me and the audience, from what I've observed, really, there's just one reason we communicate. And the reason we communicate is to feel better. And that is the only reason we communicate, which is we communicate to feel better. So for example, if I want my customers to buy my product, it's so that I can feel better, and so that I can prove all them so that they can get the results and feel better.
If I'm talking to you know, my siblings, it's because I want them to do something. And that ultimately means I'll feel better. Whatever the reason, it may seem like this reasons, but the ultimate goal is to feel better. And so for us, as entrepreneurs, business owners, the question becomes, are we communicating in a way that makes us feel better in the short term as well as in the long term, but does it also make the person we are talking to feel better, because if it's not making them feel better, than the communication has failed, right?
And so it's when you start thinking of it, as in communication has an objective, you realize how you start to talk also changes you realize your content, your content, as well as the structure in which you want to deliver? Even I used to deliver your message using? You start differently? Because you're like, Okay, is this gonna work, because now you have a reason to give it it's a becomes a small ball that you can pass to someone else.
So you have to realize I have to hold it properly. So I can make sure when I throw it to you, you can catch it, otherwise, it's gonna fall down, right? So it becomes a package project that we are doing, each communication becomes a packaged project.
Roy Barker 08:41
Yeah. And I think talking about that making our prospect or our consumer feel better, you know, that's an important part because and, you know, I just kind of give a pro tip on soliciting podcast is that when I get an email from somebody, and all they're doing is like I, you know, I won this award, I wrote this, I did this, I did that. It kind of turns me off a little bit more than here's what I can do for your audience. I can tell them about this, walk them through this. So it sometimes we have to take that focus off of ourselves, you know, and put it on the others what we're trying to do to help them.
That's absolutely, absolutely. And if you're honest, actually, you know, what you say there is really, it goes down much, much deeper. I mean, none of us like a friend who is constantly talking about them, right? I mean, if we had that friend, I'm sure we left them a long time ago. But somehow in business, we forget, we forget that we are still talking to a human right. And if it's a human, then the basic rules apply, right? Why? what interests them? How can I make them happy today? How can I deliver, you know, how can I be of service of help to them because at the end of the day, usually when we don't have something to help someone or tell someone that simple To them, we just keep quiet just
Roy Barker 10:03
right. Well, and when, you know, I couldn't help but cracking up just a little bit, you know, but when you're overwhelmed with cat videos, you know, trying to find a message in there to make somebody actually stop, watch, watch and look at your message. It's tough. I mean, there's a lot of noise out there not, you know, we kind of laugh at the cat videos. But there's a lot of other stuff. There's a lot of competitors of mine that are advertising and putting out the same information on the same channels. There's just every product in the world that we consume is on the internet and trying to reach the same audience. So, you know, I guess we have to keep all this in mind to try to break through that noise to get somebody to actually care. What we're saying
is the thing I believe, and people are welcome to go against me on this. But I've come to a small belief that the thing we call noise is, is something we tell ourselves because we are not exactly sure of what's happening on the other end, right, we have an image, we are thinking, in our mind what's happening. But from what I've learned, because when I started my podcast, one of the biggest reason I started it was to become a student of success and enterpreneurship, to understand how the pros who have done it or doing it, and one of the things that seems to be consistent to me is that there actually isn't so much noise as if there was noise and assayed your name, even though there's so much other noise, you will hear your name somehow, right.
And I think even with social media, even though there's so much content, so much distractions, there is a way we can still talk to that person who is at the other end. And the best way we talk to them, is by realizing that we need to know who they are and then address them individually, even though the message is gonna go to everyone but addressing them. So I'm going to give a very good example here. So one of the things that I'm learning is that people buy emotions. And it's something that I've been knowing for a while, but people buy emotions. However, not all emotions are going to cause someone to buy.
Other people prioritize other emotions more than other emotions, right. So for some people, for someone who has a family, that will prioritize all those emotions that have to do with loving, caring for their children, family will become a lot higher and much more valued. And so if the information is addressing these emotions, it's much more likely to catch their attention than if it was talking about something else that has to do with fashion design and looking good. And going to clubs and meeting women, you know, this person has gone from that transition. And so what happens in social media is, I think we talk so much about the things that we want the same way.
You know, you get those the emails about someone talking about what they are good at what they've done, or the accomplishment. So it's everybody saying, Oh, me, or this, or my dog, or my cat, oh, this, and some of these things entertaining in a while. But the things that we want to do as business owners is what we want to take our audience from this platform and bring them to where they can take an action. And from what I'm seeing and what I'm learning, in order to do that you must first essentially change their interrupt what they're doing.
And the best way to interrupt them is to change their state of mind. It's to ask them a question that stops them and makes them think that they call it a hook, or change the state of mind, right, depending on who you ask different intrapreneurs cause a hook others called changing state of mind. But the idea is, if I asked you a question that has to do with a motion that you care about, then your attention immediately forgets about what you're doing. And you go back into your head and you try to answer it. But as you try to answer it, you're also curious enough, if the question is just right, you're also curious enough to click to learn more.
And that directs you to where, you know, I may want you to go and where you can get information and the answers. Because as humans, one of the things that drives us to act is actually we are naturally born problem solvers. From the earliest age you're trying to solve problems. And so questions means we want to answer them because we have a clue of how to solve that problem. So we jump into that and a lot of these things that we want to we want to talk later about the sales, marketing and all these. They're essentially problem solving.
They're inducing us questions that keeps us so curious that we buy not just for our own benefit, but also to solve a specific need, which is also buried in the idea of solving a mystery, which is you know, it's a it's a challenge. I have a challenge and I want to solve that challenge. So it's all packaged within that thing that we have that we know very basic needs, that is the need to know what's, you know, what's on the other end. And so as far as getting the attention, it's knowing that as a person, they are interested in this. And because they are interested in this, this is the message that they're going to more likely respond to, and then finding the right one.
Roy Barker 15:26
Yeah, I think you can even take that a little further, like all these quizzes that they have on, on LinkedIn these days, I mean, you know, it's kind of strange, because it started out, you'd see whatever now and then and now you can't even scroll through your feed without seeing it. But I can't go past that. Because I want to know the answer to that question. You know, I'm trying to figure, you know, is, is my answer in line with that?
So yeah, you know, very curious and, you know, I think we want to learn, I think that we want people to be interested in what we think and what we feel. And I think, to your point about, you know, families, if you notice most in the states anyway, most of our car advertisements, you know, they talk about the safety of the children and getting them to their soccer events. And, you know, it's it's way built around that they're not, they don't have a guy that's pulling a fuel injector apart, showing you how, you know.
How the fuel flows through it, and how many gallons per minute and, you know, they don't really get into that and think the other thing is what we buy on emotion, and then we justify it with logic. And you know, it's like, when I buy something on the internet, and then I have to explain to my girlfriend, you know, that's where the logic like, yeah, I really needed this thing.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I think you nailed it there, right? I mean, if you look, today's in ads, some of these ads don't even talk about the product, when they do it very well, they don't even show the product until the end, where they just show you the image, but all through the way, they're just building this emotion, because at the end of the day, we know what we want, we know what we resonate with. And I think for small business owners, sometimes we get trapped and try to buy ads and go about doing all these things, before we understand the basics, right?
And one of the things that I really want to be able to champion is to bring this knowledge of how exactly to talk to another person, especially if the client at a level that they'll understand. And the best way to go about doing that, that I've come to learn is exactly what he said, right? You but you need to find the emotions because they are the driving force. Right. And without going into too much details, that is essentially the package that I think a lot of intrapreneur is missing in terms of getting a lot of their products sales up. Yeah,
Roy Barker 17:49
yeah. And there's a whole lot to that. And we'll kind of start back at the beginning here in just a minute. But, you know, I think we get in such an instantaneous mode today, as we think, Hey, I sent you an email you should be by, you know, I should get a response. And I'm ready to, you know, go ahead and buy that. And I think, you know, as we go up the price of the good or service, we have to realize it takes so many touches, and we have to build that momentum.
But we also have to try to connect and I feel like that's something that we we miss out that people buy from people that they like people buy from people that they kind of see themself in just a little bit that they can relate to. So we have to take some time to build this. And that's means being a good listener to not always us being the one talking but asking those questions where we can get that information.
And you know, kind of where I'm going with that as follow up. You know, once we've messaged we we need to have some thoughtful follow up besides just, Hey, are you ready? You know, we talked last week, are you ready? I mean, I pretty much mentioned that on every show nowadays, it seems like but it we still do that even with all the experts like yourself out here, you know, with the data that says these are the things that we should do.
And still not doing it. But anyway, I was gonna start kind of start back at the beginning, because you said the very first thing was, we need to know who we're talking to. So, you know, we'll talk a little bit about taking that time to, you know, to build that avatar of who is our customer and Who are they? And then I think the next thing is, you know, where do they live at? do they live? Are they business people on LinkedIn? Are they housewives or grandmas may be on Pinterest. Anyway, I'll let you speak to that just a minute.
Okay, so when it comes to essentially starting at the beginning, as you're saying that and who exactly you're trying to talk to and who were they, one of the things that I've come to learn one of the things that I've learned has become very, very transparent is that our ideal clients and not just one person, right. And this seems like for a lot of entrepreneurs, we make the assumption that we are talking to one client. And that's actually quite problematic.
For example, one of the things that I've noticed is, if you change your message just a tiny bit, you can also shift the age of who you are dressing. And a very good example of this was changing the phrasing of, you know, you know, this thing of this phrase a lot of entrepreneurs like to use, which is to leave life on our own terms, versus the phrase to leave the world a better place. Now, those two phrases attract a very different type of demographic, because the person who is thinking to leave the world a better place, the actual a much more mature.
And for a lot of intrapreneurs, you may use that phrase, because it doesn't seem to have anything associated with age, it just seems like a very generic phrase that a lot of people would use to, you know, to champion and cause. But one of the of the things I've come to notice is a lot of our ideal clients. And customers have a very unique identity that they associate themselves with, and certain words will resonate with them. So for example, we need one of the things that I'm seeing is that we need an avatar for the male as well as the female version, so that when you're creating content, we're also finding that now, at the beginning, it's not necessarily important to do that. But as our businesses grow, as we try to really get deep down to understand our ideal clients, we need to realize if you want to maximize opportunity, we need to address each of the individual.
Each of the individual personas that we have, and some companies actually go and have as much as five or six personas. Why? And I was shocked to hear that was my response was like, why would you need that. And the reason is very, very simple. So here's the reason why you'd need that people buy for a variety of reasons. Now, if you listen to Tony Robbins, or the other people in the market, Tony Robbins says we have six different needs, right. And I'm just going to name here very, very quickly.
And the needs are the needs for certainty, the need, and then the, which is to know, you know, what's going to happen to know we're going to be saved, no, we have security. But if we knew everything that is going to happen, we'll also be you know, very bored. So we have the need for uncertainty, which is a counterbalancing there. And then the other need we have is the need for Wow, it scared my mind just I think it's the need to feel special, what's the word for special it's been, it's a need to feel. Essentially, we have one need, which is for love and connection. And then I need to speak to a significant, that's the word also.
So we have the need to feel significant, which is, you know, we met her we know there are things that are important to us. And then we have on the other opposite of that is the need for love and connection, right and those balance out each other. And then the final two needs are the needs for you know, the growth, and then the need to give others. So these are all our basic needs, right. And there are many ways we attain them. But when we go to the subject of communicating with ideal clients, by the way, one of the few things that I've learned Quick Quick note for any intrapreneurs are very curious, people will pay more to feel significant than any of the other needs.
Now, when I learned that I learned that in photography, but I've come to verified in a in listening to other intrapreneurs It was like I saw that in photography, why would people price a certain way for different things. So the more you make, anyway, that's a topic for a different type of idea is that could be used as a strategy for business on its own there. So if you want to position and target a specific audience who value significance over every other emotion, then that's something that for entrepreneurs that will consider.
Now, those are the six needs from Tony Robbins point of view well from the other marketers, the other needs, why we buy is the need for hygiene, the need for to save money to make money, you know, to to feel to up our social status, and then to to have better health and then there's all these other needs as well as you know, to essentially, there's always a need but they all link back into those six needs those six needs. And the reason why I talk about and address this is because for each of the people we sell to some people may value saving money more than making money.
Right and therefore your message if you want to talk to somebody who wants to save more money, it needs to be different than though if you're talking to someone who want to save more money versus making more money because the person who wants to make more money. Actually, the chances are they already have that money, you'll notice that the people who have money don't really care so much about saving it as much as making more of it. So that's a different mindset completely. And so if you're talking to a person about saving more money, if well, their concern is making more money, you're missing them already.
So for them, your message is noisier. For them, your message is just this useless ad. Now I've try and figure a way to get rid of it, right. And so the same with if someone wants significance versus love and connection from, you know, family, friends and their kids, they want to spend more time with their children during the weekend. And so your message, if it's talking to someone who wants more significant will be very different, someone who wants now as, as a business owner way to incorporate some of these to some degree.
But at the same time, we need to be conscious that at some point, when you're targeting in our ads, when you're writing content, to try and get people from social media and all these other platforms, we need to narrow it down. So that we are taking very specific people Otherwise, the cost of us getting to them becomes very, very high as we tried to reach for everybody, and then Miss of, you know, all those people that we want to get to. So this is one of the few things that I'm learning. And it's quite powerful to actually see it in action from all these different platforms. And
Roy Barker 26:24
you mentioned about the feeling significant, and it's not like we have a little place that we go out and eat all the time. It's the lady that owns its own debt forever, you know, we've been going for years. And so when we walk in course, we know people, you know, they treat us, I mean, it's just going out to eat, but still, it feels special that they talk to you and have a conversation, we tend to get, you know, really good service and things like that.
So you know, to me, as even though, you know, money is always an object, no matter what you're doing. It's always you know, that balance between, you know, do I just want to go for the very cheapest thing, or do I want to go to that place that, you know, they provide that experience where you do feel valued.
Absolutely. And for most of us, we always choose, also for most of us. So there's this thing. So we'll also choose something that's has a little bit of certainty and familiarity, but a little bit of unexpectedness. So we might choose to go to this exact same place, but decide to order some a different dish, because this is going to be there, you know, the uncertainty part, whereas the experience is already confirmed.
And so that becomes our safety net, for where to go to. So there's all these things that are really playing trick in communication. And one final piece that I really wanted to wrap it up in terms of our ideal clients, and ideal customer is, when you're communicating with them, one of the biggest thing that I've noticed is they also communicate differently, this is one thing that I'm noticing, and that is, for some of them, they would prefer much more visual information.
And so if I was talking to a visual customer, I need to be able to make a lot of visual gestures, addressing they're much more likely, you know, pointing out to visual information. Whereas if they were much more, if they preferred listening or editorial method of communication, I need to take my time and explain that, you know, these all these basic steps, learn my tone, making sure my message sinks. And then if they prefer a kinesthetic, which I think is touch, then I think that's fits into the auditorium.
So there's visual in this auditorium, and then this, this kinesthetic, and I think with kinesthetic, it goes a level deeper. Now, this may not fit so much well into into the realm of the the, what he calls, the online platforms, because you know, it's touch. And it's all these things. But there are elements that contribute to that. I think that's the word I'm trying to use there.
So there are elements that contribute to that. And there are words that really addresses because they're more concrete, if you can use concrete example. So when we say I'm going to give you a testimonial, that's a very concrete example. So that speaks to the type of person who wants to kinesthetic kind of communication in a way. And so there is all these things that you want to use. And so to be to be conscious of because we addressing all these different types. And so for a lot of business owner, we don't we sometimes go without thinking. We just think it's one person but it's rather different people.
Roy Barker 29:34
Yeah, because I'm thinking, the price, the value, the price, that significance. Also, other a couple other things that you mentioned, I'm thinking well, the type of message, the wording, some of those also kind of break down across age groups. If we are target, you know, if our product is mostly by older people then the wordage that we use, versus You know, maybe if it's a younger crowd.
But then I think the complication becomes if you sell a product that spans young and old, you have to really tweak that message for that, you know, for that audience, and again, where they live, you know, if maybe you run one thing on Tick tock, and then you're putting something else on Pinterest, or, you know, Instagram, I'm visual. So I like the pictures. And you know, I'm not trying to read something today. And it was about, you know, two screens long. And after I got through the first screen, I'm like, yeah, I'm just done with this. I can't.
Yeah, I know that theory. I know that. And you notice as well also, for the audio, people that prefer to go towards the new social media platforms like clubhouse and go to other platforms like this podcast, right? Because that's where they can get a lot of auditory information digested better. So yeah, you definitely, you're nailing it down in terms of saying, we need to be able to do this. And one thing I've noticed is, for some businesses, they go as far as creating completely two different separate landing pages on their website, to try and make sure that their channel in that because there is a very high bounce rate, if the message doesn't resonate with the person coming on. So to target that, you know, they'll create two very specific, they may target men, women may target younger, older just to balance things out.
Roy Barker 31:28
Okay. So then, once we kind of get that the you know, the audience and even if we have multiple personas, once we kind of figure that out, what's that next step to really drive that message to that particular audience group?
Yeah, so one of the things that I've noticed is that is the structure for creating the message, right. But it's also the outcome of what we want at the end of this message, right? Because this message, we need to look at the message as a product as a package. product, which is, and if it's a package, if it's a packaged product, if you want it to be well delivered and received, then we need to make sure that they're going to get value out of it, it's going to communicate to them. And the outcome is going to be a positive outcome, which is, you know, to make everyone feel good at the end of the, at the end of the message.
And so there is a framework that I use, and I'm just going to share it here that I've seen it work. And I've just kind of borrowed it from learning a few bits of this, and then I piece it together. And the frame I use is called bill the bills day was and Bill is my ideal customer avatar that I have named. And when I say Bill's day was and then I tried to imagine I'm having a very short interview with Bill at the end of the day at the end of his working hour. And I'm sitting down in a Muslim, how was your day? I'm asking him, you know, what was the most frustrating thing? What did you do? What was your goal? And how did that make you feel?
And what are you looking for now? Right? And these are very specific questions that helped in terms of creating content. But if you're using it for sales, you know, there's all those sales qualifications questions. And it's a similar process, because in a sales qualification process, what you're doing is, especially if it's a sales call, what you're doing is you're actually asking the client is questions. This is an interview, we sit within a client and ask them so you know, at the moment, are you what is your business focused on? Right? You asking them?
Okay, and how many salespeople do you have? And how much is the client worth to you? And what's the biggest problem? And how much is this problem costing you per year or per month, or per week, and then from there, all you use this information to assess how you can help them and how you can close them. Notice, the intent is to close them to give them a solution, which is to make them feel good, right and to make you feel good.
And so in this process for creating content that I use is the exact same thing, nothing new, just a few different phrases and different types of questions. But the idea why I say that, first is because so now you know who your ideal avatar is. The next thing is you want to package the message addressed to them? What are the most important questions you need to answer so that the message will get delivered to them right?
Now, knowing the agenda and age may seem important, but there are words that you can use that can bypass all that right? your ideal clients probably cares about a few things that are much more important to them, what are those things emotions, what are those emotions they want to feel from your product, right? And so, and these emotions, ideally should also be at, you know, at the bottom of your description of your product, so my product does x, it does x for you, so you can get this benefit. And this benefit means to you is you'll be able to do this right and that last piece there, the meaning of what this product means today Is the emotion part.
And so when you're creating content, you're packaging it. But it also has to have the emotion of what? This message this product because the product, the message is the product, what is it going to do for them? So I'm noticing the best of our speakers are so good at packaging information as a product, we don't even feel it, we don't even realize it. And when they say do this, now, you do it so effectively, because they've given you a gift and you feel it, but you don't understand how come? How did you feel so and this is sales letter, right? It makes you feel so good. You take out your credit card and vote for the product.
So it's the whole process of packaging that message. And the way you package is, what I'm seeing is I'm saying you need to first grab the attention at the very top and how you how you grab attention, is you ask them a question that forces them to go back into their mind and become this detective who is now curious about what's going to happen next. And once you have that attention, you want to extend it by essentially showing very quickly establishing a rapport. And the way to do that is by talking about something that they care about, right? Because if they care about this, and you're talking to them about this, then they're gonna pay a bit more attention.
But and then from there on, we can go on to the messaging, and trying to make the messaging but also keep now without going too much technical, because there's a few more steps involved. But on the on the highlight top, the top view top bottom, how do you What's the word? bird's eye view? Yeah, so that from the bird's eye view, if you're looking down at the messaging, essentially, you're gonna see, you're going to be trying to get them to commit, make a little commitment. So agree to few things that you both agree to. So for example, you know, so this was, you know, this is obviously a problem for you. Yes, it is. And it's costing you a lot of money.
Oh, yes, it is costing me a lot of money. So if this if we solve this, that means the problem will be going away, and we want to make more money? Oh, yes, absolutely. So you're getting them to commit to agree you're getting them to, you know, to move along, you're getting them to make those will take those little actions. And so when it comes to asking them, okay, so I want you to do this, so we can move to the next step. They want to be too sheltered. What are you talking about? The they'll be like, okay, it makes sense, you know, all this made sense.
So let's go to the next step. And all these have different mechanisms, right, and the mechanism is a big word. But essentially, there's a process for doing of these. And for us, as entrepreneurs, we don't have to become creative geniuses, right? The processes are the same, we have used them, since we first got really good at talking, they've just evolved a little bit, but they're the same building blocks, whether you're selling a car, a house, a car, a country, a speech to inspire people, you know, that's how, you know, whatever it is that you're selling these similar building blocks, they may use different language words, maybe even employ different meanings because you want a different outcome.
But the process that goes is similar, you know, you're talking to the brain, and the brain is structured in a way that understands message in three different stages, right? First, the emotion, then the How to and then the watch, right. And I think Simon synnex book is really good in terms of giving you an overview on how to look at how the structure works, then there's other information that helps you break it down. So that's the kind of summary there so you want to structure it in a way that is deliverable to the human biology, the mind that we wish that we have, because otherwise it doesn't get delivered.
Roy Barker 38:41
Yeah, and it sounds kind of like, you know, in back in the day, the sum of the sales process when you're face to face, as you always want to lead your customer your prospect down the path by I think it was, you want to ask questions that you know that they're going to answer yes to three different times. Because once they get used to answering yes, then when you say, Great, now it's time to buy? Yes, you know, you've got them in that rhythm. It's kind of what they what they used to say about that?
Yeah, I think they call that initial commitment. They say if you want someone to help you to do something, you need to first ask them to do a small initial commitment so that when it comes to ask for a bigger commitment, it doesn't seem like too far of a stretch. And this actually goes even in dating, right? I mean, you don't just go to someone and say, could you marry me from the first day you see them? Right? You start with you know, hey, you want to grab a cup of coffee, tea and drink in a bar some it's something small. And then actually, you can even go back. even stop saying hello, right? And then you get that response and then instead of building up from there,
Roy Barker 39:47
so let's talk about the the call to action because I think that's a place that a lot of people end up leaving, either they leave it off or it's not firm enough and it's So I guess I would, I would imagine that it's one of those things that you don't want to be too abrasive and too in your face, but you have to be firm enough that somebody would want to actually do what you're asking them to do.
Yeah, and I think, from what I've noticed, from what I've seen is, I think the call to action, it depends on who you're talking to. And it depends on the language that your company is using, right? Because one of the things that I've noticed is, most news, talk about shocking, things that are happening, crisis, things that, you know, there's a terminator outside, there's all these, everything you hear in the news is never small, it's always over magnified, it's, it's so magnified to make you want to jump off your seat.
It's never something so simple, so small, you know, something happened, like, it's never that much, right. And so, for them, whenever they ask you to do something, they say tune in to find out more. And when you watch this, now, they may not say anything shocking, but before they say tune in to find out more at six or 789, they said something else, right? They gave you a preview of what you're going to find out. And it's something shocking already. Right? So you, they may not be very aggressive in saying, you know, this is what you need to do.
But they already gave you something that hooks you in your emotion so deeply, you want to sit down and know what happens next. Right? Right. And so when it comes to call to action, it really is as flexible as the message you gave them. So if your message is you want them to opt into your newsletter, right? You've given them a free book to download. So the call to action might just be enter your email here, right?
And then it will that will send it to so that's kind of pre recorded, I think it's pre call to action. I think that has actually its own name, I forgot it's on him. But then at the bottom of that you have the call to action, which is the button and then on that you might say, you know, send this, email me the booklet or the ebook, send me the ebook, or, you know, email me the ebook. So there's a lot of different choices. But it really depends on what you did before that, right because you pre framed them, and then you send it to them.
So I think for the call to action, one of the key things that we have to be so conscious of is to be as very specific as possible, because you don't want to leave it too vague, right, you just want to tell them, this is your next step. And that's it. And then if you leave it there, like there shouldn't be any other steps after that, unless it's really emphasized, that was the last step. So that for the clients, they know this is because our world in the online space is just too it's just flat, right? So the isn't this where as if you if it was in the shop, you tell them, You point at something.
You use a lot of these other gestures, you can ask them for a credit card, it's much easier for them to see your physical body language to know what to do next. But in the online space, UI, you just have word so you just have to be very mindful of saying. So, you know, this is what I want you to do next. Or you can say, by the way, if you want this, then check out this. So you can re emphasize that by just having by just talking about the thing that they want before you tell them what to do. And then your call to action doesn't have to be too direct. It can be you know, check this out or learn more here or click this button. But either Oh, it depends on who you're communicating to as well.
Roy Barker 43:40
Yeah, yeah, we need to make sure like you said, we need to set them up, lead them down the path to where they're ready to do it. But also, I think that, you know, offering something of value makes that call to action, you know, especially if we're talking about getting an email address or something like that. It just makes it easier if we, you know, have something to give to people.
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And here is where I think this really fully emphasizes the theme is that the point I mentioned earlier, you remember I mentioned that in our communication is actually a product needs to be packaged. And for some people, they'll ask you to opt in so you can get information, right. And in some cases, they'll also just say, if you want this, if you want to learn more, then click here.
Now, the person clicking the just bought, what you told them that they want, right? And so we need to be conscious that when you're writing for clients, when you're writing for a prospect, you're writing for customers, why do we say that information is actually a product in on its own on its own? And if you can use that effectively. It may be the thing that we are giving our clients when we want them to take action and it's also quite works very effectively. Yeah.
Roy Barker 44:54
So the other part is links because it's to me as As a non writer, writer on trying to write stuff, you know, it's like, okay, I can keep this short. But I don't give you a lot of information or I can like, give you way too much information overload. And I understand that the product or the service, audio, you know, there's a lot of variables that go into that. But, you know, if we're writing off, if we're sending an email to a prospect, what is the, you know, kind of an average length? What is something that we want to shoot for?
I think, the simplest, there's simply a message, the better. This is actually something that I've learned. And I personally used to think I need to explain them a lot. But actually, if you do you confuse them, the more you try to say, the more you confuse them, especially when you're writing with an intent for them to take action, you just want to give them the necessary information to take the next action, because they will get distracted, there is so many things, we don't know how much of the attention we have in the first place.
And even if we have it, we don't know how long we can maintain it. Right? For even for people who claim they love reading, we are going to be honest and say most of us skim through when we are reading, right? And so when we are trying to send a message in email, and it is, the quicker the shorter, we can package it, the better because if it's shorter than there is no, the chances of miscommunications are greatly reduced or even eliminated.
Right. And one particular thing that I've learned is, depending on what your purpose, the purpose of the communication is, you may realize that what you want to do is you want to tell them who you are. So you know who you are, what you do, why should they care? And what should they do next, right? And then once you've told them those things, they're like, oh, okay, so this is a person I opt in to, they've given me this leaflet, they're asking if I got some value with it. And if I want to get more value should click this link.
Okay, done deal. That's it. And so it really comes down to packaging you it's a product, right? So if there's no need for any necessary material inside the product, just packaged as in once you have this robot to do the next action. So what is the outcome, as long as you know, the outcome is structure, we structure everything to make sure that, okay, you're gonna read this, we're gonna take the outcome, unless if it's content for entertainment, then in that case, it also is a product, but the product becomes it is its own product at the end of that there is no action, right? So at the end of the day, they're like, Oh, that was nice. That was informative. And that's that.
Roy Barker 47:38
Yeah, I guess if it's a complicated problem, you know, something I've seen in the past is, you make it multi step, you get them to commit to that next step. And then you give them more information, if they're in that way, it kind of lets you gauge, are they truly interested in invested before you start spending more time and so we can structure it to do you know, two step three step? not overly complicated, but just to help lead them down that path? And then if you know, somebody has made it through three steps, you obviously know that they're pretty interested?
Yeah, yeah. And another thing is, sometimes, even though it's 234 steps, each of those steps could be leading to one thing. And each step will also be taken it's as its own package, right? Because for us, we tend to think we need to know how to do all of these. But the beauty about business is it has existed for so long, a lot of these things have been processed. And whatever you're trying to do, there is a version of it already in existence, if you can find it, that's really good. So if it comes to emails, there are many types of emails that we can send out.
But they really come down to emails that we want them, to thank them, we want them to buy a product, we want them to know a certain information of an upcoming event or something that happened. And then I can't think of much more than that, really. And if it's just three categories, then that means we can query they we can take the already existing formulas and use them. We may not say the exact same word, but we can structure them in a similar way. For example, a follow up email, those would be emails that are structured to keep following up automatically, to drive them to our website to go and buy.
This is a thank you email asking for testimonial. And that, you know, a thank you email back. Thank you so much for using our product. We are glad you really enjoyed just three quick question. Can you tell us how did you find x? What did you get out of x? And would you recommend X to a person? Right? And then that's it. You've got a surfer testimonial.
So there's all these other things that we can try and do which will be a lot of stuff really, they can try and do but at the end of the day, if our goal is to feel good, if we are conscious of in what way we want what we want them to do next, then it becomes so simplified. It's actually it's quite relieving. You don't have to be creative to do it, because there's already structures in place you can use.
Roy Barker 50:06
Yeah. So the other thing is the timing and frequency. Again, a lot of variables I know, but just on average, like, how often do we want if we're taking a multi step approach? How often do we want to, you know, reach out? Because I know that some, there's some that reach out way too much. And there's some that I don't hear from enough. So what do you think about that?
From what I've seen, I learned this phrase from someone, I think Katherine Morris, he said his mentor once tell them, if you didn't send an email today, or if a plane left, and they didn't fill it up with a seat, there's nothing they can do to ever fill up that opportunity again, right. And so, um, the phrasing I'm using isn't correct, because it's been a while since I've used the phrase. So it's a little bit faded. But essentially, for our emails, that's actually an opportunity to time send an email is an opportunity, right? Now, for some people, they'll say this is too much.
And for some people, they will say this is too little. And I would argue that if you have something important to give them if you can structure your email so that every time they're opening it, they feel good. I doubt somebody will say you made me feel good, too much. Yeah, I think when they say this is too much, what they're really saying is, those messages don't are not there, there's a miscommunication, right?
Because if the communication is achieved, if the communication is achieved, that means they felt good, that means you delivered the package completely to them. So from what I'm saying, from what I'm seeing is, some people will complain too much some people want, but I think really, if those who are complaining, they just didn't get the package that you send them, right. And for those who are saying, some people are actually okay with one email per day, every single day, and that will shock you. But it really comes down to how well you deliver.
Because if you really nail down your customer avatar, and if all your messages are designed to make them feel good to help them, then I don't think we are willing to turn down how they actually would save them and bookmark them, put them in a folder and label them. So it really goes down to show how much are you thinking about your avatar and your messaging versus how much of it is you? Right?
Because how much of that really speaks to if you can nail down your avatar. And if it's very, very niche, then all those people saying this is too much people who are outside, right, they opt in because something clicked, but it's not necessary for them. But so maybe you want to do there is going to be create a filter system, I've seen people where they will create a very complicated strategy to filter out clients, right, because there's also this idea of having products, then if back end products, then you have the back end offers.
So like three stages like the middle, and then the back end offers. And when you structuring it like that, what happens is you get a lot of people for the front end products. But as you send emails they buy, some of them will go on to the next middle, the middle ground products, right the middle offers and they'll buy those, but then the final even more, and then we'll get those who buy the back end product.
And what happens is from what I'm seeing is that those who go at the very end, that means they survived all those emails you've sent them. Not only they survived them, but they thrived. They took the opportunity and the chance they saw that as their way out, they got so much value, they went all the way and purchase the most expensive thing you can sell them. Right. And so that means your messages were targeted towards those while everybody else there resonated enough, but not to the degree that they can get to the very end, if that makes sense.
Roy Barker 53:57
Yes, yeah. No, no, no, I understand. Yeah. All right. We have went ran way long. I certainly do appreciate your time. But is there any closing tips or any other thing? I know, a lot more we could talk about anything else you want to put out there before we start wrapping up?
Yeah, so I think I think we've focused a lot on the sales messaging and how we can use this. And one of the things that we didn't touch is how this comes down to the team, right? And I think when you're creating our messages, sometimes we forget why we are trying what we're trying to do we get focused on the sale, and then we forget, now bring it back to if we resonate if we create a message that resonates with our clients, it can also resonate with our team, it also attract a team that believes what we do, because if you're speaking to those core emotions, the team will say me too. Right?
And so one thing that I've noticed is when you find a team, that the messaging is resonating with them, not only are they going to know Not only are they willing to work harder to to be able to take this forward because it speaks so much to their core. But they're also going to be much more inspired to do more to be, you know, more caring. for them. They're not even doing for the business anymore. It's their own, you know, their own product now, right, it's something that they want to make their own. And for entrepreneurs, I think when we struggle to build teams, we need to go back to the drawing board and ask ourselves, okay, why am I doing this?
And that question is actually quite important. Because the funny thing is, the reason why our clients buy is very similar to the reason why we are selling because somewhere along the line, we had a problem. And when we overcame that problem, we found a solution. And now we want to sell the solution we found. So for a lot of entrepreneurs, that's what we're doing. We're trying to sell something that we found a long time ago, this solution that we think works so well, we believe it, because it was a product that we found that resonated with us.
And so going back to those emotions becomes the key thing that we have in common between our teams, and our client. And that becomes a community of its own, in a sense. So I think as a pro tip is, you know, when you're creating a message, ask yourself, why, and then ask yourself, how does it benefit? And then ask yourself, what should the clients do next?
Roy Barker 56:17
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, when we talk about teams communication, I think it's taken for granted, I don't know why we went through a phase of I don't really need to explain it to you, I just told you to go do this. But it's, it's kind of disingenuous and disengages, I think, because I use an example of back in the day, you know, used to, when I work for a utility, there was a certain way that we we had these, they were three gloves, it was an inner liner, a rubber glove and an external glove, they had to go back into their container, the exact in a, in a very specific manner in order to preserve the integrity of them.
And so, and it was a safety violation. Now for about two, three years, when I had to take mine out and use them, I could never get them back in the way they were, I couldn't even figure it out. So I had a guy that I worked with, I'd been there for years, and he would do it for me. Well, finally, somebody sat me down and explained the Why have you do the certain thing. And from that day forward, it was never a question in my mind, and I take that approach with the teams, you know.
With teams that I work with, is it's important to get to the why, why we're doing this, how it benefits you the company, and then also listen to feedback, because the other thing I've, you know, figured out too, is that I may be trying to convince you of something or get you to do something that's just totally not doable, or totally out of the realm of what we need or want to do. And so instead of you just being like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show him I'm, like, I'll do that. And it really has no value. It's just have this communication, it doesn't take that long. And I think that we've kind of missed that over the last few years for some reason.
Yeah, I think we have too much become too much too focused on. I think, this get rich, quick, so fast, that we are so focused on the products that we think, get a lot of people into the next phase, because people buy products. In fact, if you lower the price, low enough, they buy. And we think that's the strategy. And from what I'm seeing, I think the strategy goes back to a human as a problem. And that problem is an emotional or a physical problem, right?
So by solving the end end, even though it's physical, it still hurts the emotional, and that's the only reason why they buy, you know, to feel good, right? And buying on its own, in essence is like a communication to ourselves to feel better. Right? Yeah. But yeah, so that's what I've seen. That's what I've been. I've been learning and that so far, I think just implementing those few things, from what I've seen, really dramatically improves. And the results. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Roy Barker 59:06
Yeah. All right, Herbert. Well, thank you so much. Before we get out of here, a couple questions. What is something a habit or a tool that you use every day in your life professional or personal that you feel like really adds a lot of value?
I use a lot of tools. I use a lot of tools. But I think one of the biggest tools that I think a lot of entrepreneurs can never substitute is a pen and paper. Now those are two tools. I apologize in advance. It's a pen and a paper, pen and pen and paper. And the reason why I chose those over all the other tools is technology is great. It's really wonderful. I can communicate to people across the ocean like you over there.
And I think that's just magical in some sense. And this is a guy coming from an engineering background. So you must understand that really mean. But the reason why I chose a pen and a paper is, I've come to realize that as intrapreneurs some of the best ideas we have, we write them down on paper, some of the biggest things that we have done, have come came from us writing down on a paper, and then communicating them and then building them. But that's not that's not the only thing.
But also, it's the opportunity for us to document what we do as fast as we can as efficient so we can keep keep moving on. But the real reason why I chose those is because if we want to dream bigger, if you want to dream further, we need to get to the habit of writing down are dreams, or goals and a piece of paper so that every single day, we can allow our mind to dream bigger. And this is something that I'm learning from a lot of entrepreneurs who have achieved two really, really big goals, they say the first thing they did was write down their goals, new goals every single day, twice a day for some of them.
And I think for entrepreneurs I've been writing for a very long time. But to see that a lot of people say that it's an important to just goes on to say paper is here to stay. And so it's a pattern. So I think those are the best tools I can pick.
Roy Barker 1:01:10
Yeah, and I've tried for years to journal and just have had trouble being consistent. And then I don't know about six months ago, something switch then I've been pretty consistent about every day, you know, I read at least a page. And it's, it's also kind of cathartic to get thoughts out there. If it was a bad day, it's like, you know, let's get it out and get it over with or even if it was a good day, you know, you can kind of celebrate.
So I think that's a great idea. And for me, personally, you know, I've tried electronic and I've tried paper, and paper just seems to be much more personal, I guess then, because I've got one speak to you do it on the computer on the you know, on your phone, you can just talk into it. And I try to keep up with the events through the day like that. But then at night, you know, that's kind of like how I get all my thoughts out and kind of settled down for the night is just to put it down on pen and paper. So yeah, great advice. Great. And I like that the papers here to stay is
I think it's here to stay. I love not books, I love low notebooks. I try and collect them whenever I can. I just think they're the greatest thing we have, you know, journaling.
Roy Barker 1:02:29
Yeah, well not keep, we can't see it. But I always had notes notebook of, you know, our interviews and questions and things and, you know, keep them for posterity. I don't know, my kids will probably never look through them. But who knows, maybe one day they'll be like, Hey, this is what I did. Yeah, history right here. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. All right, Herbert. Well, thanks again for your time. So tell everybody, first off, who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And then how can they reach out and get a hold of you?
Okay, so I love working with entrepreneurs who see their business as something that can really bring meaning to themselves into their lives, and you know, into their family lives and into their community. And the reason why I chose those words is because for a lot of us entrepreneurs, sometimes we start a business without knowing what you're trying to do. And I love helping entrepreneurs who may not know what to do, but that's what they have in their mind that they see their business as a tool, rather than as the end goal, right.
And so, I love working with consultant agents, as well as coaches in helping the business so they can communicate that message, the ideal clients and some of the value that some of my clients are saying, you know, they come so frustrated, because of being unable and the value is in the order of 12,000 per client. And I was just like, wow, I really should find a way to get even more into air for them. And the reason why I really love this is because when you communicate very well, there's an opportunity to make your clients so happy that you build that long term relationship. And I think in business, you want that long term relationships, because it saves you money in terms of acquiring a client. For a lot of entrepreneurs.
They don't realize this, but it costs money to acquire new clients. And then when you're starting a business, you may not know that, but it's a cost of acquisition. And so building those long term clients for entrepreneurs won't do that. Those are who I want to work with. And the way I help them is there are three steps and the first step is essentially assess or audit their processes for sales copy, but as well as for lead generation lead conversion.
Okay. And then step two is essentially we sit down and then we do some consultation or advisory on what could be improved. What are the areas estimating the values and the gains from what we could get As I said, for one of my clients, the gains turned out to be 12,000 280,000 per client, which was like, wow, like, we have to improve. And then from there, the third help that I can help with my client is implementation of those, right.
So now that we have the processes and the copywriting, we can implement it into the right places so that you don't have ever visited. And then we can just keep testing, finding and fine tuning to the point where when you speak to your clients, you get those clients was like, Yes, you know, I've got the product, I want it. Because I don't want someone to feel the way I felt when I did when I had some projects so important to people. But I didn't have messaging that could bring them to the people, right.
So I want to help them getting that messaging and structure in place, so that it effectively get to them. And one way, of course, of getting in touch with me is through my website, just going there. And then there's my email address, which is so my website is Herbert Marketing Help.com. And there, there's my email, or they can just email me directly at Contact @ Herbert Marketing Help.com. And I know it sounds very wordy, that is Contact @ Herbert Marketing Help.com. And that is H E R B E R T Marketing Help.com.
And I'll be happy to just even sit down with you, and then walk you through what you have in place, and then just give you some feedback, so that you can see, okay, this is not for me, this is for me. But the idea is really just getting that perspective, are you thinking in the right way in the right direction that you want to go? Because that on its own, can really help you give you a different perspective of where your business could go?
Roy Barker 1:06:46
Yeah. And I'll be sure and include all of the, the the website and the email in the show notes as well. And so but yeah, before we get away, tell us a little bit about a couple things Behind The Lens as a book that you've authored, and then also your podcast, where could they find that?
So my podcast is available on all the channels like apple, iTunes, iTunes, Spotify, and all these lovely, wonderful channel and I publish episodes every day. And the show is essentially focused on giving tips to entrepreneurs on how they can take their businesses to the next level. And these are tips that I'm learning from the marketplace, and I bring them in every day, as much as I can. And then so they can find that there. And then they can subscribe to that.
Or if they have questions about specific episode and I talk heavily on how to target your ideal audience, I give you all the BS, I break it down, I'm not, I'm not holding back. So if you want to learn how to really target and narrow down your ideal clients, I break it down all of it in detail over there. And then the next step is in terms of the behind the lens that was actually a photography book. And that was a project for for myself when I was first learning.
And then you know, trying to understand how exactly that as you know, this communication, but also, how do we go about bringing our service. So I was trying to help photographer understand what I'm teaching you now. So I've refined it a little bit more into because my background also came from photography, I started as a corporate photographer to understand how do I actually help clients?
Because with photography, it's a creative profession. But how do you exactly help them? What do they buy? And you'd be surprised they don't buy photos, they'll pay really handsomely for something else that is in the photo. And it's an emotion even though their businesses are selling too. So that was a cool thing of weather. So the My book is available on Amazon. Okay, and it's behind the lens. It's available on Amazon. If you want a link, I can send a link to go and get it directly.
Roy Barker 1:08:55
Yeah, that'd be great. What's the name of the podcast?
You're so the podcast is the Virtual Entrepreneur. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, that's the full name over there. And then the book is I forgot the full name, but it's behind the lens. And that I'll give you the link to the four knee.
Roy Barker 1:09:13
Okay. Yeah, no, that's great. Appreciate it. That is awesome. Thank you. It's been a pleasure speaking with you, y'all go check out this podcast because I think you can learn a lot. There's been a lot of great tips. You know, the thing is, is a lot of information that we learned today and so if you weren't taking notes, of course, go over and subscribe to that podcast.
That way you can get these little daily tips and tricks and learn to, you know, be a better writer, we I think we can all speak from a non writer, writer perspective, you know, we can be more concise, we can get our message out there. And, you know, we can really increase our sales and our engagement, you know, even if we're right to our current clients as well. So that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast, of course. I am your host Roy you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we are on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify or not on one that you listened to you reach out I'd be glad to add.
We're also on all the major social media networks probably hang out a little bit more on Instagram than any other. And a video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live as well. So go over and check that out. Until next time, that's going to do it for us. Take care of yourself and take care of your business.